Finally taking on the Education System Long Past due.

[U201491]

That makes about as much sense as asking people to open up their very own business instead of complaining to the Better Business Bureau about someones bad business practices.

Its just another comeback right out of the Alinsky playbook. Ignore it.

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[hermannr]

Yep. We need to get rid of schools so we can have several generations of uneducated and under/unemployable folks so that we can have societies like the ones we seems to disdain on this forum.



Government and the courts have taken God out of schools in order to maintain a seperation of church and state. If you want God in you kids education you have many options. We have kids that attend a variety of Christian schools but compete in our athletic programs at a public school. It all works out.


Schools DO NOT minimize parental involvment. The opposite is true. Schools want parents involved. Kids do better when they have parents who care what happens in school. Schools have parent teacher conferences. This is a frustrating time for the teachers I work with because parental involvment is mediocre at best. And invariably the teachers that do have parents show up tend to be of kids who are doing well in school. There are also policy and procedures in place for teachers, counselors, and administrators to contact the family of students who either fail to come to school, are problems and distractions in the classroom, or are underperforming and need to have academic modifications put in place. Don't automatically blame schools for problems. There are variables that schools have to deal with that aren't school related.

As to the OP. I hope some heads roll for the handling of the issue.

We home-schooled our 5. They are all literate, productive members of society, three have college degrees, one has an advanced college degree, as do I. On top of that, they all know how to think for themselves and not take propaganda at face value. The public baby sitting/propaganda machine is not the reason Johnny can read. I still remember, when I was in Vietnam, there was a "high School graduate" that worked for me, that could not read or write. (yes, he was a born in the US of parents Born in the US, and he was not stupid) I had to read his letters from home, and write his response for him. It was less embarrassing for him to ask his NCO to read his mail, they to ask his peers.

I am a firm believer in the state has no business in my church, just as my religion has no business trying to impose it's will on the state. However, we are guaranteed "Freedom OF Religion" NOT "Freedom FROM religion", which is what has happened, just like the schools now have "Freedom From firearms" brought to you by the same people.

 

[duane black]

^^^^^

Reminded me of a good friend I had in high school. Our senior year we learned he was illiterate. To this day I do not know how he made it through to his senior year. Absolutely stupefying. I never did ask him how he did tests, reports, etc. I lost tack of him shortly after high school.

California public school system , early 90s.

Oddly enough last summer we took our car to a local shop for a oil change for the drive / move up here and he did the work on the vehicle.

 

[U201491]

we are guaranteed "Freedom OF Religion" NOT "Freedom FROM religion", which is what has happened, just like the schools now have "Freedom From firearms" brought to you by the same people.

EXACTLY but the left has twisted that to suit their agenda.

 

[U201491]

This has drifted way off course from the original post about a young man and his rights as an American being violated and has dissolved into a religious/political he said she said. Damn shame folks. The shirt the young man wore for which he was accused accosted and arrested and the rights violated were the issue if I recall correctly. Please leave at that. There is no quicker way to get a closed thread than the direction this has taken.

Actually the discussion is very relevent to what has happened to to our country with respect to the second Amendment and the US Constitution.
The generations that are out there voting have been warped by the education system that has been created, and unless it gets changed back to teaching pride in our nation, truth in our history, not the lefts truth but the real truth and the intent of the founders of this country and get the blame America teachings and absolute intolerance for our 2nd amendment rights turned around we lose our country and the Constitution, so in fact it is One of the most important things that can be discussed. We have over 4 decades of brainwashing to erase to save the country. The rights of that young man were violated by an education system that thinks it is perfectly in the right. They are wrong and this is the result of a defunct and subverted system that we have to fix.

 

[Kevatc]

Over the past few weeks I've read several threads where folks have come out and point blank said we don't need law enforcement. Now we are in a thread where some are saying our education system has failed and can only get back to what it once was by making sure it's a Christian education that students get. Is that an advocation for seperate public Jewish schools, and public Muslim schools, and Rastafarians, and (name your religious persuasion here) .....?

Am I the only who feels this wreaks of a fundamentalism approach very much like what we having been dealing with in a place like ... oh say ... Afghanistan.


The bottom line is this has turned into an education bashing thread instead of focusing on the fact that a handful of people in positions of power really screwed the pooch when it came to handling this kid and his t-shirt. Why did this thread have to become a generalized indictment of an education system? We gun owners HATE it when people push for generalized gun control because one idiot did something stupid. Whys is this subject any different? Ot is that too Alinsky for you Taku?

 

[U201491]

Over the past few weeks I've read several threads where folks have come out and point blank said we don't need law enforcement. Now we are in a thread where some are saying our education system has failed and can only get back to what it once was by making sure it's a Christian education that students get. Is that an advocation for seperate public Jewish schools, and public Muslim schools, and Rastafarians, and (name your religious persuasion here) .....?

Am I the only who feels this wreaks of a fundamentalism approach very much like what we having been dealing with in a place like ... oh say ... Afghanistan.


The bottom line is this has turned into an education bashing thread instead of focusing on the fact that a handful of people in positions of power really screwed the pooch when it came to handling this kid and his t-shirt. Why did this thread have to become a generalized indictment of an education system? We gun owners HATE it when people push for generalized gun control because one idiot did something stupid. Whys is this subject any different? Ot is that too Alinsky for you Taku?

There ya go again redefining the topic. I never said anything about basing education on any belief other than
allowing the intent of the people who founded this country and the document they put forth to keep freedom and
a free republic, which is what we are supposed to be. In it they guaranteed freedom OF religeon, and the left has skewed that to "from religion"
Religion is what gave us morality and was supposed to keep mayhem to a minimum........
Dont twist the definition or intent to suit your whims.
Education has and is being controlled by left wing, far left wing and they have all but destroyed the history of the US and
are doing everything possible to damage and rewrite the Constitution. If you are defending that you are part of the problem.

The so called zero tolerance thing is so far wacko its rediculous except for brainwashing the youth.
It was not intended to be used on someone pointing a finger, chewing a poptart into a gun, saying bang or wearing a tee shirt in support of a constitution promoting and defending organization such as the NRA, GOA or any other pro gun group, yet that is what is is being used for.

The reason it was brought up is to put the blame where it belongs.
The current education system, the extremism in it like the recent events listed (which I could post hundreds of similar ones across the country) and recently the pushing of Islam down the throats of kids like the events in Texas, yet denial of kids rights to mention Christianity or even the pledge of allegiance to our flag.... need I explain further to you??

 

[Sling Blade]

Who or what is Alinsky?

 

[U201491]

Who or what is Alinsky?

The rules for radicals that guides marxists and communists to ask stupid questions to divert from the truth for one thing.
Also teaches them to never admit to reading rules for radicals

 

[Jamie6.5]

<snip>Am I the only who feels this wreaks of a fundamentalism approach very much like what we having been dealing with in a place like ... oh say ... Afghanistan.

I don't know that you're the only one, but I'd say you're close!

The bottom line is this has turned into an education bashing thread instead of focusing on the fact that a handful of people in positions of power really screwed the pooch when it came to handling this kid and his t-shirt. Why did this thread have to become a generalized indictment of an education system? We gun owners HATE it when people push for generalized gun control because one idiot did something stupid. Whys is this subject any different? Ot is that too Alinsky for you Taku?

So let me get this straight;
You believe this one case is the only thing wrong with the education system in this country?
Or you believe that the anti-gun crusade that the school system is engaged in is the only thing wrong with our education system?

In whose sand have you been sticking your head my friend?
From funding to violence to systemic issues with drop-out rates and illiteracy, the system as it currently exists is broken on many many many levels.
Checked the drop-out/failure to graduate rate of Portland schools lately?
They graduate roughly 50% of students, and are among the highest funded per-student schools in the U.S.
Between the NEA and the American Federation of Teachers the school's union bodies carry more lobbying clout than ANYONE, giving the vast majority of their money to democrat causes.

Top All-Time Donors, 1989-2012 | OpenSecrets

So why don't you quit mocking the people you disagree with, and do something OTHER than adopting Alinsky tactics, and really look into a few more of the overall issues before you put anymore of your ignorance on display here.

Yes it is about time we took on the issue of the school system in this country, and their attitude(s) about guns should be just the beginning.

 

[DMax]

The rules for radicals that guides marxists and communists to ask stupid questions to divert from the truth for one thing.
Also teaches them to never admit to reading rules for radicals

Don't forget your prez taught Alinsky in college which made him the great community organizer he is.

 

[U201491]

Don't forget your prez taught Alinsky in college which made hime the great community organizer he is.

I dont think many have even comprehended yet that they voted for a full blown marxist/communist that is also a muslim terrorist sympathizer. It just doesn't sink in.


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[Blitzkrieg]

Over the past few weeks I've read several threads where folks have come out and point blank said we don't need law enforcement. Now we are in a thread where some are saying our education system has failed and can only get back to what it once was by making sure it's a Christian education that students get. Is that an advocation for seperate public Jewish schools, and public Muslim schools, and Rastafarians, and (name your religious persuasion here) .....?

Am I the only who feels this wreaks of a fundamentalism approach very much like what we having been dealing with in a place like ... oh say ... Afghanistan.


The bottom line is this has turned into an education bashing thread instead of focusing on the fact that a handful of people in positions of power really screwed the pooch when it came to handling this kid and his t-shirt. Why did this thread have to become a generalized indictment of an education system? We gun owners HATE it when people push for generalized gun control because one idiot did something stupid. Whys is this subject any different? Ot is that too Alinsky for you Taku?

No, it's called freedom. If I had to explain it you wouldn't understand

 

[Stomper]

They should rename it "Tools are Radicals" by All-Lewinski... It'll blow your mind.

 

[Burt Gummer]

Anyone that can home school a kid has my respect.

I do believe that the kid has to be strong enough to be an 'outcast' though in that case. Missing out on the constant and subtle hive programming and repeated illogical BS that means repeated 10,000x times becomes truth.

Imagine a kid doing a report on why 9/11 was a lie as an essay in a public school. The kid would be mowed over, humiliated, and shunned although he is the rational/logical one and all the others are the deluded and deceived drones.

 

[206thsense]

Over the past few weeks I've read several threads where folks have come out and point blank said we don't need law enforcement. Now we are in a thread where some are saying our education system has failed and can only get back to what it once was by making sure it's a Christian education that students get. Is that an advocation for seperate public Jewish schools, and public Muslim schools, and Rastafarians, and (name your religious persuasion here) .....?

Am I the only who feels this wreaks of a fundamentalism approach very much like what we having been dealing with in a place like ... oh say ... Afghanistan.


The bottom line is this has turned into an education bashing thread instead of focusing on the fact that a handful of people in positions of power really screwed the pooch when it came to handling this kid and his t-shirt. Why did this thread have to become a generalized indictment of an education system? We gun owners HATE it when people push for generalized gun control because one idiot did something stupid. Whys is this subject any different? Ot is that too Alinsky for you Taku?

Kevatc, I've been reading this thread and refraining from responding until now. I feel the need now to speak up, if for no other reason than to back you up.

So to lay all my cards on the table:

-I grew up as a pastor's kid in a fairly conservative Christian home. Our family attended church for various events probably 3-4 days a week, and my parents seriously contemplated sending me to private Christian school, but decided upon public school.

-I teach at a public elementary school in WA state. It's a fairly diverse school, kids from all different walks of life, but mostly working class families, immigrants, and yeah, a few military brats. 70% of the kids qualify for free/reduced lunch. I've got kids who are Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, or just irreligious because their parents are.

As Kevatc has mentioned, I think as gun owners, we can all agree that the kid in the story was obviously wronged. Children should and do have limited 1st Amendment rights at school; the Supreme Court has ruled so on several occasions beginning with landmark case of Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, where several students were disciplined for wearing black armbands protesting the Vietnam War:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the accusations that many schools teach "communism", I guess that depends on what you consider "communism"... if you believe teaching students that they bear a collective responsibility for their school and its reputation, sure... there's a lot of "communism." If you mean to say that many teachers are liberal / left-leaning, that is true, but not EVERY teacher is. My co-worker, our school's music teacher, a 20 year Navy vet, would have strong words for you if you ever dared to label him a "liberal"... especially since the annual Veteran's Day Assembly is probably one of our school's most loved and patriotic events.

Both in my experiences as a student and as a teacher, I've never encountered any anti-Christian attitudes from teachers, but plenty from my fellow students. If you think it's anti-Christian that schools don't have a designated prayer time or teach Christian theology; well, I guess public school is anti-Christian. Speaking as a teacher who still maintains his faith (after a fairly turbulent, anti-Christian adolescence and young adulthood), I've given permission to more than one student who asked if they could bring in their Bible (in English, Spanish, Ukranian, etc.) to read during their individual reading time; I also let my students mention their faith in personal essays or for self-chosen home reading projects. I even let a student bring in a video of her singing and playing the guitar in church just because she wanted to show what her family does on the weekends.

I understand that many of you had bad experiences with school / public education. I'm sorry that happened to you, but if your bad experiences are valid, so are the good experiences of many people who experience public school in the United States. One of my students from last year is the son of war refugees from West Africa, a star student in every subject he's learned in class. His father runs several small businesses, the mother works in nursing/elderly care. Seven of the eight children were born here in the US, all of them attend public school. Next year, the 2nd oldest will graduate high school with honors, is in the high school's ROTC program, and will be applying for admission to the Air Force academy. Without public education, none of these children would be successful or able to contribute to this country.

If you're interested in not only preserving our 2nd Amendment rights, but the future of this country, every single person in this thread that had a bad experience in public school needs to be either volunteering at one or working with kids - coaching sports, church youth group, Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, tutoring at the library, whatever. The kid that fails to get educated today turns into tomorrow's problem for society.

And prisons are a whole lot more expensive than schools.

 

[U201491]

Kevatc, I've been reading this thread and refraining from responding until now. I feel the need now to speak up, if for no other reason than to back you up.

So to lay all my cards on the table:

-I grew up as a pastor's kid in a fairly conservative Christian home. Our family attended church for various events probably 3-4 days a week, and my parents seriously contemplated sending me to private Christian school, but decided upon public school.

-I teach at a public elementary school in WA state. It's a fairly diverse school, kids from all different walks of life, but mostly working class families, immigrants, and yeah, a few military brats. 70% of the kids qualify for free/reduced lunch. I've got kids who are Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Muslim, Buddhist, or just irreligious because their parents are.

As Kevatc has mentioned, I think as gun owners, we can all agree that the kid in the story was obviously wronged. Children should and do have limited 1st Amendment rights at school; the Supreme Court has ruled so on several occasions beginning with landmark case of Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District, where several students were disciplined for wearing black armbands protesting the Vietnam War:

Tinker v. Des Moines Independent Community School District - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the accusations that many schools teach "communism", I guess that depends on what you consider "communism"... if you believe teaching students that they bear a collective responsibility for their school and its reputation, sure... there's a lot of "communism." If you mean to say that many teachers are liberal / left-leaning, that is true, but not EVERY teacher is. My co-worker, our school's music teacher, a 20 year Navy vet, would have strong words for you if you ever dared to label him a "liberal"... especially since the annual Veteran's Day Assembly is probably one of our school's most loved and patriotic events.

Both in my experiences as a student and as a teacher, I've never encountered any anti-Christian attitudes from teachers, but plenty from my fellow students. If you think it's anti-Christian that schools don't have a designated prayer time or teach Christian theology; well, I guess public school is anti-Christian. Speaking as a teacher who still maintains his faith (after a fairly turbulent, anti-Christian adolescence and young adulthood), I've given permission to more than one student who asked if they could bring in their Bible (in English, Spanish, Ukranian, etc.) to read during their individual reading time; I also let my students mention their faith in personal essays or for self-chosen home reading projects. I even let a student bring in a video of her singing and playing the guitar in church just because she wanted to show what her family does on the weekends.

I understand that many of you had bad experiences with school / public education. I'm sorry that happened to you, but if your bad experiences are valid, so are the good experiences of many people who experience public school in the United States. One of my students from last year is the son of war refugees from West Africa, a star student in every subject he's learned in class. His father runs several small businesses, the mother works in nursing/elderly care. Seven of the eight children were born here in the US, all of them attend public school. Next year, the 2nd oldest will graduate high school with honors, is in the high school's ROTC program, and will be applying for admission to the Air Force academy. Without public education, none of these children would be successful or able to contribute to this country.

If you're interested in not only preserving our 2nd Amendment rights, but the future of this country, every single person in this thread that had a bad experience in public school needs to be either volunteering at one or working with kids - coaching sports, church youth group, Boy Scouts, Girls Scouts, tutoring at the library, whatever. The kid that fails to get educated today turns into tomorrow's problem for society.

And prisons are a whole lot more expensive than schools.

This has to do with the education as a whole.
There are of course exceptions, but the majority have gone to the far left in too many ways. They teach kids that The US is to blame for all the bad things in the world and they take the pride of our heritage and throw in in the trash cans.
I don't know why you think this has to do with any bad experiences that people have had here in education. I actually had a great education and we were taught truthful history, we actually said the pledge and if we wanted to discuss christianity we could, or not at all. We were allowed to actually bring our firearms to school and store them in our locker until after school when we would hunt, deer, upland birds, squirrels depending on the season. Schools actually had shooting teams in most high schools.
America was not defamed at every turn and times were good. Communist and marxists began to enter every aspect of government, education, they generally started and controlled the unions, and inch by inch we have digressed to the sorry point this country has fallen.
It began in earnest in the 60's when they saw the anti war protesters as an easy tool and they exploited them to the max. I have gone to meetings and heard discussions of how these people planned to infiltrate slowly over time into every aspect of environmental control positions, to use the courts to control everything they could beginning with industries like timber. They were advised to enter government enviromental positions to exert political control. They did that with logging, and destroyed an industry. They have gained entry into local and federal political positions even down to the fish and wildlife dept. Anything that gives them their "control" they worked their way into the Universities first then into the elementary, middle schools, administrative positions, teaching positions, and they just keep creeping into all aspects of this society, but mainly into positions that they can exert the most control. I entered into the environmental sciences in college, then when I had seen some of these people hold the meetings and listened to their agendas, it angered me to the point I left the direction I was going and entered a trade that didn't have to deal with these people. Now I wish I would have stayed and countered their goals.
The insane no tolerance policies, no belief systems, except the government pushed ones like the islamic push in Texas, the socialist teachings, the anti capitalist teachings, anti 2nd Amendment teachings are real and out there in the news every day across this nation, and denial is not going to make it go away. People need to become outraged enough to take their children's education control back.
Untill tht happens this country will degrade until it collapses and it is getting there. It has increased for the past 40+ years, actually fifty years, and the people that are products of all of that are far from the generations of people that made this country great.
Education has become the biggest tool that the marxists, communists have used and will continue using unless we reverse it.
I do not blanket that to 100% of the education remaining, but it is at best guess to the 80% level, that is 80% too much !!
Results in education of home schooled, charter schools, faith based schools, etc are excellent and in government run schools have the kids either drop out or are for all intent and purpose illiterate. Most of the kids that come out of college have neither the tools or the drive to actually make it in the business world. Education is dumbed down, competition is frowned on, awards are passed out to achievers, but equally to non achievers
that had not earned them. When they do not have that handed to them out in the real world they fall apart and have no idea how to handle someone telling they are not performing. They never learned to handle defeat. The entire system is skewed, and it was done by people set on damaging this country.
The bulk of the democratic leadership has become the socialist marxist party and the republicans have become what the democratic party used to be, and sliding further left by the day. A strong constitutional conservative party needs to replace them both for this Nation to survive. We have to rebuild this Nation to the strength it once had. A true free republic.

 

[U201491]

Kevatc, I've been reading this thread and refraining from responding until now. I feel the need now to speak up, if for no other reason than to back you up.
.

One thing I see about you by your signature is what seems to advocate only one rifle to each household.
That is FAR from the 2nd Amendment.
ie;
According to your profile. Curious...... Did I misunderstand that.
Many prefer to have a dozen or so around. In your stated scenario, wouldn't you want whoever has your back as well armed as you?

"One rifle per family. I do believe each family has the right and responsibility to defend themselves from tyrannical, corrupt police, politicians and lobbyists trying to manipulate laws to protect their money, while they criminalize you, for feeding your family. And when I say family I don't necessarily mean mom and dad, you know, I mean your community, your neighborhood. And that rifle is symbolic of that defense, but I really do mean a rifle.

 

[206thsense]

One thing I see about you by your signature is what seems to advocate only one rifle to each household.
That is FAR from the 2nd Amendment.
ie;
According to your profile. Curious...... Did I misunderstand that.
Many prefer to have a dozen or so around. In your stated scenario, wouldn't you want whoever has your back as well armed as you?

The one rifle is more of a minimum suggestion rather than a maximum.

And given the large number of families these days that don't own a firearm nor take the time to be responsible for their own protection, suggesting every family in America own at least one rifle is a starting point. Not necessarily the end goal... sorta like how Bill Gates once envisioned a computer on every desk in every home in America...

 

[206thsense]

Untill tht happens this country will degrade until it collapses and it is getting there. It has increased for the past 40+ years, actually fifty years, and the people that are products of all of that are far from the generations of people that made this country great.
Education has become the biggest tool that the marxists, communists have used and will continue using unless we reverse it.
I do not blanket that to 100% of the education remaining, but it is at best guess to the 80% level, that is 80% too much !!
Results in education of home schooled, charter schools, faith based schools, etc are excellent and in government run schools have the kids either drop out or are for all intent and purpose illiterate. Most of the kids that come out of college have neither the tools or the drive to actually make it in the business world. Education is dumbed down, competition is frowned on, awards are passed out to achievers, but equally to non achievers
that had not earned them. When they do not have that handed to them out in the real world they fall apart and have no idea how to handle someone telling they are not performing. They never learned to handle defeat. The entire system is skewed, and it was done by people set on damaging this country.

Hey Taku... long post, I read the entire thing, and for the sake of brevity, I parsed it to just this one quote right here. If you think 80% of the modern education is rotten and needs to be reversed, how are YOU, yes you, working to change that? I say that not to be a jerk, but because I believe we can spend all day ranting about the things wrong with education in the US. Trust me, as a person who's working inside the system at the moment, I probably have much larger list than you do of things that I see that are going wrong.

I'd like to think that as gun owners, we already subscribe to a belief of positive action and self-reliance - so what are you doing personally to work with young people and ensure a respect of our 2A rights to the next generationi?

One thing that I'd also like to talk about - you mention the alternatives of home schooling, charter schools, faith-based schools, etc. Those are all solutions for *some* people, but large numbers of Americans can't afford to home school (need a parent at home), or pay the tuition to many faith-based schools. Both of these kinds of schools also have the HUGE disadvantage of removing kids from learning how to interact with other kids who may or may not be like them - public education should be the foundation of our American democracy, where kids learn that despite our many different backgrounds and beliefs, we are part of this amazing country and we bear the collective responsibility of contributing something to keep it functioning.

Charter schools are a "hot topic" in education, and while I believe there are some promising ideas/methods that charters can pilot, charters are NOT a silver bullet to solving our education woes. Depending on the state rules, charters can be owned by a non-profit group, who then is allowed to hire a FOR-PROFIT corporation to run the school. Charters also have a reputation of being highly selective about the students they choose to educate - kids with special needs or challenging circumstances frequently get denied admission to charter schools while public schools are mandated (rightly so) to educate every child who comes through our doors. We can't blindly apply business models to schools simply to save money - are we going to start "firing" students because they're blind or autistic? Or that odd kid with Asperger syndrome, whose parents are just as spacey as she is? Are we going to deny her chance at an education just because her parents didn't register for the lottery?

I guess my last response is that it's hugely unfair to blame the current culture of "everyone's a winner" or mass ignorance solely on teachers. Parents / families are the first teachers of students, and judging by observations of trends my kindergarten colleagues have observed, students are coming to school terribly unprepared for school - you have kids that can't write their own name, or even respect adult authority. I've had parents call me to complain that their kid isn't doing the homework, or worst, make excuses for why their kid failed the math test. It's easy, Mrs. So-and-so... HE/SHE NEEDS TO STUDY HARDER IN CLASS AND ACTUALLY COME TO SCHOOL READY TO WORK. If a vast Marxist/Communist conspiracy exists in our society, it's not rooted in schools. The problems of self-entitlement and laziness have been endemic in our society, and it starts at home.