6. In my opinion, Ore. 114 may have the unintended effect of encouraging black market gun sales. Ordinarily law-abiding people will be overly tempted to engage in private sales without doing a legal transfer.
This , in my opinion is a highly likely and very powerful outcome of 114.
Not that it will do the LGS who is suffering under an unjust and overbearing / overreaching law much good.

Please note that I am not saying that the LGS should throw in the towel....
I think that one should support the LGS with as many purchases of ammo and firearm accessories as one can.
However that alone won't make the rent , pay the bills and make it so the shop workers have a paycheck.

I am saying that 114 will :
Cause otherwise law abiding folks to break this law....
And many gun shops will go under , because of this law.
Andy
 
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I am throwing this idea out there for motivated FFLs. Once the permit to purchase process is developed, an FFL could sell a training package at the time they sell a firearm or a transfer service.

It might work like this. Two people come in and want to do a transfer. You explain that the buyer needs to have a permit to purchase to initiate a background check. If the buyer doesn't have one then you require them to buy the training package in order for you to proceed with a transfer service. If the buyer agrees to buy a training package then you agree to provide a transfer service and take possession of firearm. The buyer can then wrap up his deal with seller. As the FFL you will hold the firearm while the buyer gets the training completed, applies for and receives his permit. Once he has his permit then he comes back to your shop and you proceed with the background check process.

This will require you to sit on the firearm for much longer than normal and will probably only work for shops with generous storage space.

The training package could be something you provide if you're approved to offer the training or it could be something that you contract out and take a cut of of it.

Nothing is going to be normal with firearm sales and transfers anymore, so start thinking about how you are going to adapt.
That would seem to vastly overcomplicate several independent transactional points into a single multi point interdependent transaction where any one single element breakdown would collapse all the other elements along with it. Not to mention bringing in a 3rd party (private party seller) into a single multi facet transaction that would be at extremely high risk of liability and financial responsibility.

Not saying that FFL's shouldn't look into expanding their services to cover the new elements of the permit application training and such, but it should remain seperate and independent of the other elements.

That's not really even considering the storage issues and unplannable rates of inventory intake issues that would very likely result. Tack on disposition of property and loses if a combined "package" purchase arrangement fell through at any given point/element. Some of which being completely out the control of the sphere of the 3 parties immediately involved in the transaction itself.

Sell training packages. Sure!
Do transfers and sales. Sure!

In progressive order and independent of all other considerations.

"Pre-selling" or preemptively entering into a transaction with additional qualifying/disqualifying elements included.... yeah... NO way, IMHO. YMMV
 
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If these guys are going to survive they will have to adapt to what current rules and regs are in place. We as individuals can choose to ignore Measure 114 restrictions, FFLs can not unless they want to risk losing their license and potentially their livelihood.
I think "adapting" will most likely mean having to shift into other streams of revenue other than just firearm sales and transfers. Be it training, hunting trip packages, gunsmithing courses... etc etc...

There really isn't much they can do if their potential firearm sales pools are dramatically reduced. Maybe more to more online and out of state sale. That would be another viable option for a new revenue stream, too.
 
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If these guys are going to survive they will have to adapt to what current rules and regs are in place. We as individuals can choose to ignore Measure 114 restrictions, FFLs can not unless they want to risk losing their license and potentially their livelihood.
Has nothing to do with ignoring restrictions and everything to do with supporting the passage of 114, because it would increase their revenue if it passed. Not all gun owners, trainers, or sellers are our friends. It can be a tough lesson to learn. We see it all the time at ranges where you would think that, as gun owners, we would respect each other, but it's not always that way.
 
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Has nothing to do with ignoring restrictions and everything to do with supporting the passage of 114, because it would increase their revenue if it passed. Not all gun owners, trainers, or sellers are our friends. It can be a tough lesson to learn. We see it all the time at ranges where you would think that, as gun owners, we would respect each other, but it's not always that way.
I agree with you.
 
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My take on this is that gun shops that are run on credit will go under. Ones that own their inventory and shop will just wait it out. Most of those tend to be older and well established and run by real gunsmiths. I know in past conversations with my local guy that even before this BS he's got more gun work to do than he can keep up with. Also there are out of state gun shows like Reno that are worth attending.
 
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That would seem to vastly overcomplicate several independent transactional points into a single multi point interdependent transaction where any one single element breakdown would collapse all the other elements along with it. Not to mention bringing in a 3rd party (private party seller) into a single multi facet transaction that would be at extremely high risk of liability and financial responsibility.

Not saying that FFL's shouldn't look into expanding their services to cover the new elements of the permit application training and such, but it should remain seperate and independent of the other elements.

That's not really even considering the storage issues and unplannable rates of inventory intake issues that would very likely result. Tack on disposition of property and loses if a combined "package" purchase arrangement fell through at any given point/element. Some of which being completely out the control of the sphere of the 3 parties immediately involved in the transaction itself.

Sell training packages. Sure!
Do transfers and sales. Sure!

In progressive order and independent of all other considerations.

"Pre-selling" or preemptively entering into a transaction with additional qualifying/disqualifying elements included.... yeah... NO way, IMHO. YMMV
OK forget the training package. Let me use Tigard Pawn as an example because I am familiar with how their system works and because of a Tigard ordnance they already delay background checks on some firearm purchases.

Tigard has a city ordnance that requires firearms that Tigard Pawn purchases from individuals to be held for 30 days before they can release them to customers. They will put them out for sale but with a tag that has the release date written on it. If a customer buys a firearm that is not ready for release they will prepay for the firearm and then come back after the release date to fill out the background check. Tigard Pawn will store the firearm while waiting for the customer to return after the release date.

Applying this system to post measure 114 transfers would be easy. In a private transfer scenario, Tigard Pawn would collect the transfer fee up front from the customer (transferee) and hold on to the firearm until the customer came back with permit to purchase. When the seller came back with permit to purchase Tigard Pawn would proceed with the background check process. The seller would have gotten his money from the buyer in the beginning is no longer involved.


Edit: this system could be used for those needing to store firearms as well. They could drop them off and prepay transfer fee. When they returned to pick them up they would need to bring a permit to purchase with them, complete the background check process and then get their firearms back.
 
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My take on this is that gun shops that are run on credit will go under. Ones that own their inventory and shop will just wait it out. Most of those tend to be older and well established and run by real gunsmiths. I know in past conversations with my local guy that even before this BS he's got more gun work to do than he can keep up with. Also there are out of state gun shows like Reno that are worth attending.
online out of state, are sales are still a thing too.
 
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Applying this system to post measure 114 transfers would be easy. In a private transfer scenario, Tigard Pawn would collect the transfer fee up front from the customer (transferee) and hold on to the firearm until the customer came back with permit to purchase. When the seller buyer came back with permit to purchase Tigard Pawn would proceed with the background check process. The seller would have gotten his money from the buyer in the beginning is no longer involved.
FIFY ;)

Just looking at the obvious, The buyer either fails to follow through with the permit application training or process (life happens), he fails to certify or he is denied a may-issue purchase permit.

Now what? Think... who's going to get the shaft? Does the additional exposure for TP make sense from a business perspective?
 
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FIFY ;)

Just looking at the obvious, The buyer either fails to follow through with the permit application training or process (life happens), he fails to certify or he is denied a may-issue purchase permit.

Now what? Think... who's going to get the shaft? Does the additional exposure for TP make sense from a business perspective?
Now what?

Tigard Pawn could provide these options to the customer:

The customer could have a different FFL come and pick up the firearm(s)
The customer could sell the firearm(s) to Tigard Pawn.
The customer could pay Tigard Pawn to package and ship the firearm(s) to another FFL.


If customer abandons property Tigard Pawn could sell it and keep the cash. There is very little risk for Tigard Pawn.
 
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If they had quilting materials maybe they could keep the lights on till they get this 114 ousted !
They would likely turn into a quilting shop that sold guns on the side. My daughter did it for a short time. A lot of money in quilting.

As for the black or "free" market. In Oregon, one would fair better off using the gun in a small crime spree than selling it off paper. Steal $500 you might not get arrested due to being hungry or sad.
 
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Now what?

Tigard Pawn could provide these options to the customer:

The customer could have a different FFL come and pick up the firearm(s)
The customer could sell the firearm(s) to Tigard Pawn.
The customer could pay Tigard Pawn to package and ship the firearm(s) to another FFL.


If customer abandons property Tigard Pawn could sell it and keep the cash. There is very little risk for Tigard Pawn.
I would respectfully disagree.

The customer will want a remedy. Having another FFL pick it or shipping it out does little for the customer unless they can find another FFL buyer willing to give them more than TP would... after taking into account the additional fees or other costs involved. That could be compounded loss for them. OR... accept pawn rates for the firearm they had planned to own.

The risk for TP is that they intended to make money on the deal, may end up sitting a firearm they can't sell very quickly and would be increasing their inventory while more unplanned money is going out. In business... if you aren't making money, you're losing it.

In either case, the customer will get the monetary shaft in the end. How many times will that happen before TP's reputation suffers? Was pre-service/selling prior to a permit being presented a scam to steal firearms off unsuspecting sellers? See how that could go? Especially if it's a frequent occurance. Again, risk.

To offset that, TP "could" be compelled to offer failed transaction buyers more money for their firearms as a good will move. How sustainable is that before it does too much damage to their bottom line? Again... risk.

It could also raise risk of liability IF enough transactions failed, buyers felt shafted and accused (or sued) TP for knowingly taking advantage of buyers for profit knowing that even with the completed training it may not be possible for them to obtain a permit.

In history... like people getting suckered into car and payday loans... who got blamed for their own stupidity?

I know it's easy to say that if you have something worth X dollars that you can sell for X dollars that there is no risk, but in business it's not only about the dollars. It's profitability over the smallest time frame and turnover to generate compounding profits.

IE., A $500 pistol sitting in your home that you can sell for $500 is "safe". For a business, a $500 pistol sitting in their cabinet costs them "X" amount of money per day it sits there. The longer it takes to sell it, the more then need to get for it to recover their $500 initial investment just to break even. Drag out how long it sits though preselling it, holding it for 30-60days with no possibility of any income from it... that's "risk" for a company. The first sale attempt falls through... now you've compounded the time and cost to that item. Consider that what a customer will pay for it is fairly fixed. If the accured "cost" of that pistol exceeds what any customer is willing to pay... it's a loss... even if you got $550 for that $500 pistol.

Again, risk.....

Now let's talk about the risk of profit loss that $500 "could" have been generating if it hadn't been tied up in that botched deal for so long....🤣
 
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I would respectfully disagree.

The customer will want a remedy. Having another FFL pick it or shipping it out does little for the customer unless they can find another FFL buyer willing to give them more than TP would... after taking into account the additional fees or other costs involved. That could be compounded loss for them. OR... accept pawn rates for the firearm they had planned to own.

The risk for TP is that they intended to make money on the deal, may end up sitting a firearm they can't sell very quickly and would be increasing their inventory while more unplanned money is going out. In business... if you aren't making money, you're losing it.

In either case, the customer will get the monetary shaft in the end. How many times will that happen before TP's reputation suffers? Was pre-service/selling prior to a permit being presented a scam to steal firearms off unsuspecting sellers? See how that could go? Especially if it's a frequent occurance. Again, risk.

To offset that, TP "could" be compelled to offer failed transaction buyers more money for their firearms as a good will move. How sustainable is that before it does too much damage to their bottom line? Again... risk.

It could also raise risk of liability IF enough transactions failed, buyers felt shafted and accused (or sued) TP for knowingly taking advantage of buyers for profit knowing that even with the completed training it may not be possible for them to obtain a permit.

In history... like people getting suckered into car and payday loans... who got blamed for their own stupidity?

I know it's easy to say that if you have something worth X dollars that you can sell for X dollars that there is no risk, but in business it's not only about the dollars. It's profitability over the smallest time frame and turnover to generate compounding profits.

IE., A $500 pistol sitting in your home that you can sell for $500 is "safe". For a business, a $500 pistol sitting in their cabinet costs them "X" amount of money per day it sits there. The longer it takes to sell it, the more then need to get for it to recover their $500 initial investment just to break even. Drag out how long it sits though preselling it, holding it for 30-60days with no possibility of any income from it... that's "risk" for a company. The first sale attempt falls through... now you've compounded the time and cost to that item. Consider that what a customer will pay for it is fairly fixed. If the accured "cost" of that pistol exceeds what any customer is willing to pay... it's a loss... even if you got $550 for that $500 pistol.

Again, risk.....

Now let's talk about the risk of profit loss that $500 "could" have been generating if it hadn't been tied up in that botched deal for so long....🤣
The pawn business in general faces most all the risk you have presented including the reputational risk. If they inform the customers of the all the risk up front prior to accepting their prepaid transfer fees then it's up to the customer to accept those risk or not have any other options for local transfers.

I watched them buy a very nice pistol for $150 yesterday that could easily sell for $450. Is their reputation going to take a hit, possibly but the seller wasn't obligated to take the $150, he could have walked out. The pawn shop is in the business to make money not provide charity.

There are going to be very few options for sellers/buyers to get transfers initiated locally. My idea is one way to do that. The days of instant gratification are over, at least until the permits become available. I am open to other ideas?
 
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The pawn business in general faces most all the risk you have presented including the reputational risk. If they inform the customers of the all the risk up front prior to accepting their prepaid transfer fees then it's up to the customer to accept those risk or not have any other options for local transfers.

I watched them buy a very nice pistol for $150 yesterday that could easily sell for $450. Is their reputation going to take a hit, possibly but the seller wasn't obligated to take the $150, he could have walked out. The pawn shop is in the business to make money not provide charity.

There are going to be very few options for sellers/buyers to get transfers initiated locally. My idea is one way to do that. The days of instant gratification are over, at least until the permits become available. I am open to other ideas?
Holy crap you make a of of noise, why don't you go outside and play or something?
 
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Holy crap you make a of of noise, why don't you go outside and play or something?
It seems like many of you FFL guys are resigned to just accepting the end of revenue streams. Carry on as you like, that will lead to more business for the FFls who haven't given up.
 
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I watched them buy a very nice pistol for $150 yesterday that could easily sell for $450. Is their reputation going to take a hit, possibly but the seller wasn't obligated to take the $150, he could have walked out. The pawn shop is in the business to make money not provide charity.
That is an entirely different animal than what you were talking about earlier. Walking in to sell a firearm you own for pennies is not the same as a guy buying a $500 gun from another private party. Going to an FFL just for a simple transfer, finding out there is more too it. His permit application get's fouled and now he's faced with the only option to accept $200 from the pawn shop or walk away with nothing.
 
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That is an entirely different animal than what you were talking about earlier. Walking in to sell a firearm you own for pennies is not the same as a guy buying a $500 gun from another private party. Going to an FFL just for a simple transfer, finding out there is more too it. His permit application get's fouled and now he's faced with the only option to accept $200 from the pawn shop or walk away with nothing.
The point I was trying to make is that the customer will be made to understand the risk of doing the prepaid transfer upfront. The customer will have the option to walk if they do not want to accept those risk.
 
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It seems like many of you FFL guys are resigned to just accepting the end of revenue streams. Carry on as you like, that will lead to more business for the FFls who haven't given up.
I might have been looking at it through ethical glasses. If you meant creating additional revenue streams by locking someone into a transfer before they have their permit, and best case, they don't get one and the FFL can steal a firearm out from under someone for a hefty profit... then, yeah! That would work. ;)
 

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