FFL question on 80% lower transfer

[bbbass]

You do not need to engrave it to do an in state private party transfer.

Not sure what point you are trying to make with your last statements. The point that I was making is that your statement above is totally incorrect. So the rest of your argument is moot. Regardless of state laws, state of transaction, state of residence, or interstate, once the newly milled lower is sold or transferred, even thru private party and in any state in the nation, it must be serialized or it's a Federal crime.

 

[wired]

Oh, I see where you are going with that. You are working under the assumption that you need to engrave if you sell a completed firearm you built from an 80% receiver. The problem is that your'e wrong which is understandable given all the bad info out on the internet . We'll just take this one step at a time since you are convinced you are right. You do not need to engrave anything on the receiver if you sell it unless its a title 2 firearm or if its transferred through a dealer . Intrastate transfers are different in most states. The ATF would like you to engrave your info but it is not a legal requirement. Look at the ATF FAQ on the subject.You'll see terms like "should" not "shall" or they start changing the subject halfway through the paragraph and they on about being a manufacturer and the requirements of a manufacturer. Problem is that "manufacturer" and "maker" are not the same thing. A "maker" is a casual builder not engaged in the business of building firearms for sale. You build a few and maybe you sell one down the road but you did not build with the intent of sale. A Manufacturer is a 07 licensee. If you start to get to the point where what you are doing passes the line into manufacturing ( over that vague ATF limit ) then you need a full on 07 FFL and you need to start engraving otherwise as long as the intent to manufacture for sale is not there you do not need to engrave ANYTHING or keep manufacturers records even if you sell it intrastate IN MOST STATES.

"If an individual is "engaged in the business" (defined below) as a manufacturer or seller of firearms then that person must obtain a federal firearms license. In addition, manufacturers have a variety of specific responsibilities under the Gun Control Act, such as including a serial number and other markings on all firearms."

None of that applies to a "maker" building casually and occasionally selling something he built without the intent to build to sell.

 

[bbbass]

The info on this that I researched is different from what you state. The ATF can be soooooo confusing and all the different opinions here are confusing. What I was going on is a policy statement written by one of the ATF bureau chiefs.

Yes, I am aware of the requirements for manufacturers and dealers and SBRs. Not sure where they define "maker" as being different than manufacturer.

Do you have links to the FAQ you mentioned? I read thru several, including what Fred Ball posted in this thread and I didn't see anything along the lines of "should" rather than "shall".

 

[wired]

If you look closer.at those opinions they get to the point concerning what a manufacturer must do to be compliant. You are not a manufacturer. Manufacturer is a word with legal meaning. You are a maker. Completely different animal.

 

[Boboclown]

When we're talking ATF opinions, we talking about those letters or what?

Those letters apply only to the person they're sent to. Even then, it might not hold in court.

 

[bbbass]

If you look closer.at those opinions they get to the point concerning what a manufacturer must do to be compliant. You are not a manufacturer. Manufacturer is a word with legal meaning. You are a maker. Completely different animal.

I have all the info the ATF published regarding "manufacturer". But I cannot find anything on "maker". I don't wish to be dense, but do you have anything official on ATF definition of "maker"?

 

[wired]

Look more on the NFA side for the maker definition. As it applies to title 2.. If you've looked up manufacturer you see it is an FFL class. Manufacturers have requirements and rules they must follow. As an individual you only have to mark a receiver if it goes interstate or through a dealer.

 

[bbbass]

When we're talking ATF opinions, we talking about those letters or what?

Those letters apply only to the person they're sent to. Even then, it might not hold in court.

I've wondered about that Bobo. Lacking the letter, one would be led to believe that "ghost" guns cannot legally exist. That once an 80% receiver is milled out, it would have to have a serial # as required by the ATF faq. Has there been any instance of a person out shooting his personal ghost weapon and been fined, arrested, harrassed, etc by the BATF?

 

[wired]

Again, you are assuming that the builder is a manufacturer. Stop doing that.

 

[Boboclown]

I've wondered about that Bobo. Lacking the letter, one would be led to believe that "ghost" guns cannot legally exist. That once an 80% receiver is milled out, it would have to have a serial # as required by the ATF faq. Has there been any instance of a person out shooting his personal ghost weapon and been fined, arrested, harrassed, etc by the BATF?

There's the actual law, then letters that state the law, then opinion letters. The 80% receivers are not firearms by law, until they are machined. Legally, a person can make his/her own gun. There's more to it, but since I'm not a lawyer I won't go too far into it.

 

[bbbass]

Again, you are assuming that the builder is a manufacturer. Stop doing that.

No I'm not. ATF rules apply to individuals as well. For your definition of "maker", The completion of an 80% receiver is not a "maker" of a NFA Title 2 firearm in any of the 6 categories. Therefore, the NFA doesn't apply in any way, shape, or form. I cannot find any legal basis for your statement that a private party transaction of a non-NFA firearm transacted for instance within the state of Idaho would not require the firearm to be marked.

 

[bbbass]

There's the actual law, then letters that state the law, then opinion letters. The 80% receivers are not firearms by law, until they are machined. Legally, a person can make his/her own gun. There's more to it, but since I'm not a lawyer I won't go too far into it.

Yes, a person is allowed to make his/her own gun. Per the opinion referenced by a relative of a lawyer in an earlier reply to this thread, the blanks need to he serialized once they are exist as a "firearm" in the legal definition.

So many opinions. Sigh.

 

[Boboclown]

Yes, a person is allowed to make his/her own gun. Per the opinion referenced by a relative of a lawyer in an earlier reply to this thread, the blanks need to he serialized once they are exist as a "firearm" in the legal definition.

So many opinions. Sigh.

Its not an opinion that a person can make their own gun. Its a law.

 

[wired]

You want find anything in the US Code saying an individual has to serial number a gun unless it goes through a dealer. The GCA of 68 states that manufacturers must serial number their guns etc.. That applies to manufacturers. An individual is not a manufacturer. A manufacturer is an 07 FFL holder as defined by the '68 GCA. Not all gun laws apply to every builder. Some do. You can't build a closed bolt semi auto . You can't violate 922r and build guns with less than 10 parts of the bad stuff list. etc. Serial numbering though is a different subject. It applies to licensed manufacturers only . You can build a gun with no serial numbers. If your state says its OK you can sell between individuals with no serial numbers. Occasionally you'll see someone post an opinion letter where the ATF says you need to engrave makers information on a title 1 firearm if you want to sell it or transfer it to someone else. That is an over reach by the ATF and is not backed up by US Code. The ATF sends out incorrect "opinion letters" on a regular basis.

https://www.atf.gov/file/82791/download

"The term "manufacturer" is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10) as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for purposes of sale or distribution."

"ATF has similarly and consistently interpreted the term "manufacturer" under the GCA to mean any person who engages in the business of making firearms, by casting, assembly, alteration, or otherwise, for the purpose of sale or distribution. Such persons must have a manufacturer's license under the GCA, maintain permanent records of manufacture, and submit annual manufacturing reports. "

"The GCA at 18 U.S.C. 923(i) provides, in part, that licensed manufacturers and importers must "identify" each firearm manufactured or imported by a serial number in the manner prescribed by regulation. Federal regulations at 27 CFR 478.92(a)(1) further require importers and manufacturers to identify each firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing the individual serial number and certain additional information - the model (if designated), caliber/gauge, manufacturer's name, and place of origin on the frame, receiver, or barrel - at a minimum depth. Section 478.92(a)(2) specifies that a "firearm frame or receiver that is not a component part of a complete weapon at the time it is sold, shipped, or otherwise disposed of … must be identified as required by this section."

 

[bbbass]

Ok, please enough about manufacturing... I understand everything about manufacturing. Are you saying that lacking any specific prohibition, transfer of unserialized firearms are allowed? Keep in mind that the ATF can make any ruling, or an opinion even, that has the force of law but are not listed in the GCA yet have the force of the GCA and the power of the BATF behind it.


This mentions nothing about manufacturing:

When does a receiver need to have markings and/or serial numbers?
Receivers that meet the definition of a "firearm" must have markings, including a serial number. See 27 CFR § 478.92 (Firearm manufacturers marking requirements).

Q&A Category:
Receiver Blanks

This is an overreach?

 

[wired]

Yes. There is nothing in 18 USC stating that a individual must serialize a receiver. Even if you did serialize it what then? You are not bound, as a licensed 07 manufacturer is, to keep books or send in reports to the ATF so how are they going to track it? There is nothing in the US Code stating that an individual must serialize for intrastate non FFL transfer purposes. An ATF opinion letter does not carry the force of law nor can they just do whatever they want. Can they send out erroneous crap? You bet they can . Sometimes they get it really wrong. They would like you to serialize but a bad lawyer a day out of law school would slice that reasoning to bits in court in two seconds without the pertinent law to back it up.

 

[Koda]

...this is why I have always assumed that a private person manufacturing their own firearm does not need to serialize it if they eventually sell or transfer it later on. The exact law the ATF cites for how to serialize is clearly written, and titled for... "licensed" manufacturers. Despite what any letter says (written by an agent) I have not seen a law yet that specifies an DIY gun needs serialized before transfer.


personally in consideration of gun politics and laws I would serialize it before transferring it just to be safe... I know that goes against the grain of making your own in the first place but its not worth the trouble of being the test case.

 

[Skier]

I'm a little unclear on why anyone would be against serializing their own home-made receiver (whether it was milled from a 80% lower, printed on a 3d printer, or carved by hand from a chunk of aluminum when you melted down a bunch of pop cans in your home-made forge).

If I put my initials and a couple numbers on it, who cares, if I don't need to then go register that number with someone. If I could buy a full firearm without anyone writing down a serial number then there wouldn't even be a market for 80% lowers...

It just doesn't seem like having a serial number or not would really be an issue with anyone, if no one knows tracks that serial number, so why not just put a serial number on whatever you make, then you'd seem to be looking legal in just about any context (other than maybe making and selling a bunch of them), and you still have a rifle that the government doesn't know about, unless you transfer it through an FFL, at which time, you don't own it anymore, so you probably won't care about whether it's registered with the state to someone else's name. No?

 

[Flopsweat]

Sometimes defiance just feels like the right thing to do.

 

[PDX1953]

I edited the quote simply to streamline my point.

[QUOTE="A non-licensee may not transfer a firearm to a non-licensed resident of another State." Gifting is the same as selling to the ATF and I don't believe there are any differences if it is a family member. The only exceptions seem to be if you are mailing it to yourself. [/QUOTE]

Less than a week ago I called three ATF offices - Portland, Sacramento & L.A., and asked an Investigator in each office if moving a firearm across state lines to give as a gift would violate any Federal laws. I got the same answer three times - "No." One Investigator in CA said his Father gave him some guns & I said jokingly, "Of course you notified the State…" and his answer was, "No, and I'm not going to."

In my case I'm gifting a number of firearms to my son in CA. As long as it's not classified in CA as an Assault Weapon or is an NFA Class III item my son fills out a CA DOJ Intrafamilial Transfer form, lists all of the guns he's receiving and mails it and a $19 check to the CA DOJ Firearms Unit. A few weeks later he receives a written confirmation that they're registered to him. The guns don't have to be on the list of approved guns but they can't hold more than 10-rounds in a magazine. In CA the gift can only go Parent to Child, Grandparent to Grandchild or backwards. It's not legal to go Brother to Sister, etc. The only question on the form about where the gun came from is the relationship. The form doesn't even ask the giver's name, what state the gun came from, etc. There's a new on-line system for this process & it asks the relationship and the giver's name so we use the paper method.

Unless the law changed very recently it's legal for a non-FFL to mail a long gun via the USPS. The barrel has to be at least 16" long & overall length can't be less than 26". For years I had a job where I traveled all over the U.S. and dealt with the USPS regularly so I'd ask them about it from time to time. About 6 months ago I asked my local P.O. and once again I was told it was legal if it met the requirements.

I know how I'd have dealt with a non-serialized lower but call an ATF office and ask an Inspector what the law is about the serial number. ATF guys get a bad rap sometimes but if I'm trying to do something with a firearm and stay legal they've always been helpful. They don't ask for your name or anything else so you can remain totally anonymous.