FFL advice requested on an attempted "Shady" firearm deal

[receo]

I found myself in a variety store today that happens to sell firearms. While making another impulse rifle purchase I noticed a gentleman at the counter filling out the ATF 4473 form. The clerk was hovering over the buyer when he noticed that the buyer answered yes to question 11.C

For a refresher that question is:
(Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?)

The clerk stated multiple times "You will have to change that to NO or they will probably deny your purchase." The buyer seamed confused at the request to change the answer to NO. After some prompting the prospective buyer finally said " Well I don't want to lie." Incredibly the buyer paid the $10 and proceeded with the background check.

The buyer proceeds to do some more shopping as he is #48 in line. I finish my form 4473 and promptly become #49. I give the clerk my phone number and leave the store to run some errands and wait for their call telling me I'm approved.

Surprise I'm approved.

When I return a couple hours later the same clerk is there and he promptly gets me my rifle. I asked him if the other buyer was denied and he said that "He was." (I know it's none of my business) We chatted some and that is when I learned of which question the denied buyer answered YES to. We chat some more regarding the denied purchase and the clerk utters "I dont care."

Here's what is bothering me, why on earth would the clerk keep prompting the guy to change his answer to NO? It didn't seem like he was trying to save him the $10 but more like he wanted him to be able to purchase the gun.


I'm assuming if the guy answered NO the Feds would have denied him anyway. Should i bring this to the attention of the store manager? If any ffls on here could chime in on this I would sincerely appreciate it.

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[deen_ad]

Boy, that clerk needs an education! I'd certainly talk to them about it. (No, I'm not an FFL and I've never played one on TV either)

 

[soulrider]

Yeah the clerk should not be telling them anything like that. It is like someone at DMV telling the half blind person what letters are in what row on the eye exam.

 

[receo]

Deen and soulrider

Thats how I feel about the whole issue but I have no idea what the ATF policy is for ffl dealers assisting on the form.

 

[Eludnu]

I don't have an FFL, although I have had the opportunity to create jobs for many hard working, honest folks over the years. As the owner I would have wanted to know what what you witnessed. If the manager isn't aware of the issue, he can't fix it.

 

[keitha300wsm]

That's Wrong! I would have a talk with the manager! That guy could go to jail for falsifying info on the 4473. I am an FFL and that would be the last day of employment for that clerk. As a dealer I want to maintain my credibility, it doesn't matter if you don't like the law, these are the guidelines we have to work in. That clerk should have told the guy how it was and save him the $10. The clerk doesn't know why he shouldn't have a gun and it doesn't matter. What matters is the gun should not be transfered to someone that should not have them, that's why we have background checks. I'd like to send BATF in to "explain" these things to him. :angry:

 

[Pepiot]

I would report this to the OSP or local sheriff ASAP. IF this is true (not sayn it is not, just sayn)

 

[Mark W.]

I have filled out many many 4473's over the years and never had a clerk coach me on anything. I would for sure let the manager of the store know what you witnessed.

 

[dolooper]

I found myself in a variety store today that happens to sell firearms. While making another impulse rifle purchase I noticed a gentleman at the counter filling out the ATF 4473 form. The clerk was hovering over the buyer when he noticed that the buyer answered yes to question 11.C

For a refresher that question is:
(Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony, or any other crime, for which the judge could have imprisoned you for more than one year, even if you received a shorter sentence including probation?)

The clerk stated multiple times "You will have to change that to NO or they will probably deny your purchase." The buyer seamed confused at the request to change the answer to NO. After some prompting the prospective buyer finally said " Well I don't want to lie." Incredibly the buyer paid the $10 and proceeded with the background check.

The buyer proceeds to do some more shopping as he is #48 in line. I finish my form 4473 and promptly become #49. I give the clerk my phone number and leave the store to run some errands and wait for their call telling me I'm approved.

Surprise I'm approved.

When I return a couple hours later the same clerk is there and he promptly gets me my rifle. I asked him if the other buyer was denied and he said that "He was." (I know it's none of my business) We chatted some and that is when I learned of which question the denied buyer answered YES to. We chat some more regarding the denied purchase and the clerk utters "I dont care."

Here's what is bothering me, why on earth would the clerk keep prompting the guy to change his answer to NO? It didn't seem like he was trying to save him the $10 but more like he wanted him to be able to purchase the gun.


I'm assuming if the guy answered NO the Feds would have denied him anyway. Should i bring this to the attention of the store manager? If any ffls on here could chime in on this I would sincerely appreciate it.

Not an FFL but that seems really bad.

OTOH, I remember the first time I bought a gun and the guy handed me the green card and said, "fill this out and make sure to answer 'No' to all the questions."

Things have changed and I won't say how long ago that was. But, my instinct is still to answer no to all the questions. Heh.

 

[Scott]

Even if you lie and can't have a gun you will still be denied.

Plus the feds only prosecuted less than 1% of the people that lied on the form.


Sent from my Nexus 7 using Xparent Red Tapatalk 2

 

[Redcap]

I don't see the problem. If the guy is prohibited, he is going to be denied no matter what he puts on the stupid form. Not only that, but our government lies to us constantly...why is it so wrong to give back?

 

[receo]

Not only that, but our government lies to us constantly...why is it so wrong to give back?

Because that makes us no better than them. I do appreciate your comments in the matter.

 

[ATCclears]

Call the ATF and report the FFL. The buyer did the right thing. The FFL should be reprimanded.

This is the type of stuff that causes problems for all of us.

Peter

 

[Kelzebubba]

Call the ATF and report the FFL. The buyer did the right thing. The FFL should be reprimanded.

This is the type of stuff that causes problems for all of us.

Peter

I second this. Call the ATF or the local sheriff. As for the clerk, I work for a gun related business, and even though I handle no inventory, since they are stored on site, I have to pass the same background check that people who have to buy them do. This means this FFL dealer has a bad employee and may have more, or may not be following regulations like they are supposed to.

 

[PiratePast40]

Doesn't the 5th ammendment protect you from self incrimination? I believe that it's allready been successfully argued that a felon doesn't need to answer yes to the question since it would put him in jeopardy for illegally filling out the form. Sounds like a circular argument to me, but I do remember someone else discussing this.

 

[receo]

Update:

Spoke with the assistant manager at the store and he acknowledged my concerns and indicated that what happened wasn't right. I hope he follows through with some additional training.

I got a call back from the ATF, first three numbers I called sounded like fax machines. The agent said that the dealer should never have submitted the form after the buyer answered yes to the question as he had reason to believe that he was prohibited from purchasing a firearm.

I questioned the ATF agent on how a dealer should deal with a purchaser who accidentally answered yes due to reading the form incorrectly and he stated that "The buyer can cross out the erroneous answer and initial it." Then the dealer can lawfully submit the form.

Thanks again for all of the responses that were posted. I hope this thread helps others out.

 

[CharonPDX]

Doesn't the 5th ammendment protect you from self incrimination? I believe that it's allready been successfully argued that a felon doesn't need to answer yes to the question since it would put him in jeopardy for illegally filling out the form. Sounds like a circular argument to me, but I do remember someone else discussing this.

It protects you in that you don't have to answer such questions - but it does not protect you from lying about it.

So if you left the box blank you'd be okay (you'd still be denied, of course,) but if you answered "No" when the answer was "Yes", you'd presumably be guilty of something (lying on a government form, don't know for sure what that would count as, but I assume it's a crime.)

 

[PiratePast40]

It protects you in that you don't have to answer such questions - but it does not protect you from lying about it.

So if you left the box blank you'd be okay (you'd still be denied, of course,) but if you answered "No" when the answer was "Yes", you'd presumably be guilty of something (lying on a government form, don't know for sure what that would count as, but I assume it's a crime.)

Thanks, I knew it was something weird. Not sure but think it may also apply to registering a firearm. The argument I heard was that a felon didn't have to report that he had a firearm since it would be self incriminating. Want to make very clear that I'm not a lawyer, never played one on TV, and didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night!

 

[clearconscience]

I would call the ATF.
That's a pretty f'd up thing to do. What if the guy was a bad guy and lied on the form and the feds didn't catch it and he got out the door with it?
This is why they want to ban firearms because people get around the laws that are already in place. What that store clerk did was illegal and he shouldn't be working with firearms.

I was at Keith's in gresham one day and was watching the store clerk with these 3 guys. An old man probably in his late 70s-early 80s and two you ger guys that looked like crack heads.
The two younger guys were looking at remington 870 shotguns and told the clerk we'll take 3 of those. The clerk said well need your DLs and you have to fill out paperwork.
The crack head quickly snapped oh I'm not buying it, pointed at the old man and said he's buying all 3!
My jaw almost hit the floor.
The clerk hesitantly said ok.

I wanted to yell at that clerk and haven't been back to keith's since.
I wished I would have called the ATF or said something to the owner. But the guys at keith's are such a-holes I didn't want to get into it.

That was at least 4-5 years ago and it still bugs me to this day.

 

[clearconscience]

Lying on that form if I'm correct is a felony, and that clerk was advising him to commit a felony.