Ferguson, MO

[soberups]

soberups
Are there any INNOCENT BYSTANDERS on the streets during a riot???
I didn't think so . . .

Sheldon

There is a difference between looters and protesters. The fact that many of the "protesters" might be lowlife hooligans is irrelevant, and by law their "innocence" is for a jury to determine not you.

More importantly...people who are protesting in the middle of or across the street do not pose a threat to you that will justify the use of lethal force in a court of law, and if a round from your AK or AR misses or passes thru an assailant and hits one of them you have some serious problems.

 

[soberups]

Buy amunition that is less likely to over penetrate. Im sorry but if it were my store I would be right in front with my rifle... although I would have a bit more cover and armor. if anyone wants to fight me in court about that fine. I have an excellent lawyer.

Why not a shotgun?

 

[1337BaldEagle]

Why not a shotgun?

With respect unless you're shooting slugs you're dealing with more of a potential for stray lead than a precise rifle.

 

[soberups]

With respect unless you're shooting slugs you're dealing with more of a potential for stray lead than a precise rifle.

True, but at 100 yards birdshot is a lot less lethal than an AK or AR round.

 

[4Freedom]

If I had a shop to defend down there then (a) I wouldn't try doing it alone (b) my primary weapon would be a large can of pepper spray with a holstered handgun as a backup and (c) I wouldn't stand there posturing like a tough guy wearing a provocative T-shirt and holding an AK in each hand. If the guy in the photo winds up having to use one of those guns for self defense, that photo could be used by the prosecution to bury him. Like it or not, we now live in a world where pretty much everyone has a video camera in their phone and we are never more than about 3 minutes away from being recorded and viewed all over the world on YouTube.

During a riot, my pepper spray will be used to spice up my food and that's about it..

I will carry a handgun as backup and have my evil black rifles in my hands loaded and ready to defend my property even if it means I or them must be stopped forcefully in the process.

I would not be resorting to handguns when bands of looting rioters, many who could be armed with rifles and shotguns themselves come to break into my store, kill me or my loves ones , rob and burn my property to the ground.

Sorry, but I believe in being vigilant and if I have to go to jail, because some scumbag prosecutor and jury deciding to incriminated me for executing my Constitutional and legal rights, than so be it.. If we just sit there and act weak and helpless before these band of brigands and thieves and the crooks and traitors who defend them in the courts, then these bastards have defeated us. They have defeated FREEDOM. Our Founding Fathers didn't just sit around and allow themselves to be pushed around endlessly and constantly be at the mercy of unscrupulous laws and leaders. They stood up and defended themselves and their land.


I say that guy is an honorable American citizen and his crime is being vigilant and defending himself and his property using justified and legal means. He should never feel shamed for that.

What is really irritating me is how these thugs in Ferguson , MO think a cop killing a violent robber justifies them to turn their neighborhood into complete anarchy.

I say if the black community in Ferguson , MO have declared war on the American people, then they should be counted as traitors and an enemy. I respect people who form a Revolution or Revolt for a good reason, but these people are forming a revolt for absolutely no justified reason. All they wish to do is cause mischief, mayhem and disorder. They are the ones who have turned this into a race battle, as well, making out the "evil white cop" as a murderer who hunts innocent black men and executes them. They've already proven the guy who was shot committed a violent robbery earlier and their claims of the cop chasing down an innocent black person and executing in cold blood is complete bulls**t.

What can I say? I feel the people in Ferguson, MO are behaving as traitors and if they think they can resort to anarchy and wreck havoc on the community, why shouldn't they be dealt with accordingly? Robbing businesses, burning down stores, killing and attacking innocent people? I am sorry what exactly are the people in Ferguson trying to achieve?

They want to burn this cop alive , form a witch hunt against him? So far, the facts are on the cops side.. Are we suppose to just execute this cop to appease these looting barbarians? If we give into this concession , then what's next?

 

[Gunguy45]

With respect unless you're shooting slugs you're dealing with more of a potential for stray lead than a precise rifle.

Actually, you're dead wrong here on all possible fronts.

First, it's a tried and true police tactic to shoot birdshot just in font of a rioter's feet. the INTENT is to cause minor injury, but more importantly, pain. PAIN will stop most non-dedicated attackers. Pain and the potential of DYING, will stop pretty much all but the armed or suicidal.

I have ARs as well as other platforms. Thanks, in a riot instance I'll stick to my old Winchester 1200 shotgun.

To quote Patrick Swayze: "We're nice and we're polite, until it's time to not be nice."

Nothing quite says: "GO AWAY" like a 12-gague shot at your feet with birdshot. If that doesn't work, then who says ALL I have is birdshot?

 

[Gunguy45]

During a riot, my pepper spray will be used to spice up my food and that's about it..

I will carry a handgun as backup and have my evil black rifles in my hands loaded and ready to defend my property even if it means I or them must be stopped forcefully in the process.

I would not be resorting to handguns when bands of looting rioters, many who could be armed with rifles and shotguns themselves come to break into my store, kill me or my loves ones , rob and burn my property to the ground.

Sorry, but I believe in being vigilant and if I have to go to jail, because some scumbag prosecutor and jury deciding to incriminated me for executing my Constitutional and legal rights, than so be it.. If we just sit there and act weak and helpless before these band of brigands and thieves and the crooks and traitors who defend them in the courts, then these bastards have defeated us. They have defeated FREEDOM. Our Founding Fathers didn't just sit around and allow themselves to be pushed around endlessly and constantly be at the mercy of unscrupulous laws and leaders. They stood up and defended themselves and their land.


I say that guy is an honorable American citizen and his crime is being vigilant and defending himself and his property using justified and legal means. He should never feel shamed for that.

What is really irritating me is how these thugs in Ferguson , MO think a cop killing a violent robber justifies them to turn their neighborhood into complete anarchy.

I say if the black community in Ferguson , MO have declared war on the American people, then they should be counted as traitors and an enemy. I respect people who form a Revolution or Revolt for a good reason, but these people are forming a revolt for absolutely no justified reason. All they wish to do is cause mischief, mayhem and disorder. They are the ones who have turned this into a race battle, as well, making out the "evil white cop" as a murderer who hunts innocent black men and executes them. They've already proven the guy who was shot committed a violent robbery earlier and their claims of the cop chasing down an innocent black person and executing in cold blood is complete bulls**t.

What can I say? I feel the people in Ferguson, MO are behaving as traitors and if they think they can resort to anarchy and wreck havoc on the community, why shouldn't they be dealt with accordingly? Robbing businesses, burning down stores, killing and attacking innocent people? I am sorry what exactly are the people in Ferguson trying to achieve?

They want to burn this cop alive , form a witch hunt against him? So far, the facts are on the cops side.. Are we suppose to just execute this cop to appease these looting barbarians? If we give into this concession , then what's next?

What a crock of Horsepuckey!

First, we have ZERO actual FACTS about the shooting. Notably, we've seen the officer shielded from public ID. How long was George Zimmerman's name kept from the public? I'd bet it was less than 6 days.

Second, the Ferguson PD is the worst excuse for a Barney Fife Dipstick dept. I've seen in recent memory. NO ID of the shooter, ZERO details from the PD for DAYS and then the entire PD deploying with ARs to meet what at that time were peaceful demonstrations.

As for your allegation nothing has been "proven," at all. It may well be that Mr. Brown was a scumbag and his scumbag nature brought him to scuffle with an armed policeman, trying for a disarm. *I* realize that's pretty much an "I'm going to shoot you down to the ground the first chance I get" but most people don't, because they don't realize the dangerousness of that particular threat. (i.e you've already demonstrated lethal opportunity, intent and ability)

Shooting the UNARMED guy who was running away or raising his hands in surrender, however, is not, ANYWHERE, kosher.

Once the threat stops being a THREAT, you may not shoot. Nor may you use any other kind of force unless being resisted.

You're jumping on the "he had it coming to him" bandwagon when we have no facts to support ANY opinion on this matter.

What happened? God knows and the cop knows, and not much of anyone else seems to.

The outcry over this case seems not to stem just from the shooting, but the incredibly inept response of the police department and the ensuing nightmare of ARs and armored vehicles being turned on what were initially, entirely peaceful protests.

And frankly, having lived in the southern-midwest, I'm not surprised at any of this. I'm just surprised that it took this long for the riots to start.

If you and I were treated routinely like African American young men are in that area, trust me, you'd have been EXECUTING cops without apology a very long time ago. You can thank your stars that the good people of Mo. have generally behaved much more patiently than I would in the same instance.

If you don't grasp that last paragraph, I suggest you do some more reading. For every scumbag drug-dealer out there in the "hood," 100 young black men who have never committed so much as a traffic infraction are pulled over, harassed and often beaten, without recourse.

Racial profiling isn't a liberal invention. It actually happens. What we're seeing is years and years of pent-up frustration and anger at continual official neglect and deliberate abuse.

I can write volumes on the "Black Community's" failure to address their own problems. But that doesn't stop the fact that young black men are spectacularly likely to be pulled over, questioned and generally harassed in ways that you and I wouldn't put up with for one second if it happened to us on a routine basis.

But it's roughly 12% of the population, mostly poor, ignorant and accepting of abuse. Yep, they don't say a word, most of the time. They just take it.

Guys like you and your Mouon Llabe stuff make me laugh. What would YOU do if you and your sons were routinely subjected to unreasonable search and seizure, police beatings and even killings with ZERO consequence for the offenders from the judiciary?

I'm not second guessing all police. I'm well aware of the crime stats among African Americans compared to ALL other groups. But it gets to be a habit. Comments like "Gorillas in the Mist" over the radio spring to mind. And if you think that's a reference to a Sigourney Weaver Movie, you're naive in the extreme.

We have a severe problem in this country with a permanently disenfranchised, permanently poor segment of the population. A problem of culture, of upbringing, of poor education, and on and on and on. you'd have to be a fool not to acknowledge these things.

But you're leaping to a conclusion that because a person did Y, then it is also reasonable to believe they did X, without ANY real evidence to back up that claim.

The sun is up. I will do some shooting today. It does not follow that the sun rose BECAUSE I plan to do some shooting today.

Your argument stems from the flawed logic of that previous statement. It's flawed, it's full of assumptions and based on, as far as I can see, ZERO evidence one way or the other.

Just so you know, I was all for George Zimmerman. He was a Flapping idiot, but he was not a criminal.

In this case, all we know so far is that the Ferguson PD has given a life lesson to every other PD in the country: "Don't be like these idiots!"

 

[1337BaldEagle]

Actually, you're dead wrong here on all possible fronts.

First, it's a tried and true police tactic to shoot birdshot just in font of a rioter's feet. the INTENT is to cause minor injury, but more importantly, pain. PAIN will stop most non-dedicated attackers. Pain and the potential of DYING, will stop pretty much all but the armed or suicidal.

I have ARs as well as other platforms. Thanks, in a riot instance I'll stick to my old Winchester 1200 shotgun.

To quote Patrick Swayze: "We're nice and we're polite, until it's time to not be nice."

Nothing quite says: "GO AWAY" like a 12-gague shot at your feet with birdshot. If that doesn't work, then who says ALL I have is birdshot?

Sir, you miss my point entirely.

I am merely pointing out that for someone who is worried that the word "Dam" on your t-shirt could lead to attempted murder charges is unlikely to want to use birdshot because of the very reasons you so eloquently put in your post above. We all know the effects of birdshot. Most know something about police tactics. The Eugene SWAT team used this very one when I volunteered to be a dummy for them, except they used rubber shot, though that may have been a curtsey. I'm pointing out that someone who is grossly over worried about litigation should probably be sticking to legal methods of defense. The use of force laws, least ways in Oregon, do not permit you to deliberately maim an individual with a method that had the potential for lethal consequence. Potential lethal force is reserved for, let's all say it cus we all know it,

"(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or

(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]"

It's not even permissible to use rock salt on an individual in this instance. Rioting isn't a felony unless it happens on a manciple establishment. They aren't burglarizing your home. The firing of any gun, in the air, on the ground, at someone, over their shoulder, is not permissible unless, in this instance, number 3 is met "(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person."

If we look further 161.255 Use of force in defense of premises strengthens the argument that you are NOT permitted to fire unless it is "
(2) A person may use deadly physical force under the circumstances set forth in subsection (1) of this section only:

(a) In defense of a person as provided in ORS 161.219 (Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person); or

(b) When the person reasonably believes it necessary [to prevent the commission of arson] or [a felony by force and violence by the trespasser.]"

Long story short, unless they try to set your business on fire OR it's reasonable to assume that they are going to try and use force that could kill you, you are not permitted to use a method that could be considered deadly force.

If all conditions are met, and you have to defend yourself in court you bet your bubblegum a prosecuting attorney is going to bring up the bird shot and how you were unwilling to use "lethal" force to stop your attacker because you were not truly in fear for your life. Birdshot is a a win/win for a prosecutor in any situation. They will argue "it's lethal" if you were to use "non lethal" force to stop someone and they will argue that it is "less lethal" if you actually have to kill someone.

And in any case, not the ammo to use if you're the type to be worried that the word "dam" on your shirt is going to get you charged with attempted murder.

 

[Oregonhunter5]

I'd like to see people try to loot and steal from businesses in the great state of Idaho. It be like watching a live version of that old duck hunting arcade game.

 

[Gunguy45]

Sir, you miss my point entirely.

I am merely pointing out that for someone who is worried that the word "Dam" on your t-shirt could lead to attempted murder charges is unlikely to want to use birdshot because of the very reasons you so eloquently put in your post above. We all know the effects of birdshot. Most know something about police tactics. The Eugene SWAT team used this very one when I volunteered to be a dummy for them, except they used rubber shot, though that may have been a curtsey. I'm pointing out that someone who is grossly over worried about litigation should probably be sticking to legal methods of defense. The use of force laws, least ways in Oregon, do not permit you to deliberately maim an individual with a method that had the potential for lethal consequence. Potential lethal force is reserved for, let's all say it cus we all know it,

"(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling; or

(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]"

It's not even permissible to use rock salt on an individual in this instance. Rioting isn't a felony unless it happens on a manciple establishment. They aren't burglarizing your home. The firing of any gun, in the air, on the ground, at someone, over their shoulder, is not permissible unless, in this instance, number 3 is met "(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person."

If we look further 161.255 Use of force in defense of premises strengthens the argument that you are NOT permitted to fire unless it is "
(2) A person may use deadly physical force under the circumstances set forth in subsection (1) of this section only:

(a) In defense of a person as provided in ORS 161.219 (Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person); or

(b) When the person reasonably believes it necessary [to prevent the commission of arson] or [a felony by force and violence by the trespasser.]"

Long story short, unless they try to set your business on fire OR it's reasonable to assume that they are going to try and use force that could kill you, you are not permitted to use a method that could be considered deadly force.

If all conditions are met, and you have to defend yourself in court you bet your bubblegum a prosecuting attorney is going to bring up the bird shot and how you were unwilling to use "lethal" force to stop your attacker because you were not truly in fear for your life. Birdshot is a a win/win for a prosecutor in any situation. They will argue "it's lethal" if you were to use "non lethal" force to stop someone and they will argue that it is "less lethal" if you actually have to kill someone.

And in any case, not the ammo to use if you're the type to be worried that the word "dam" on your shirt is going to get you charged with attempted murder.

To quote you:
"Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person."

Well, anything I'm willing to shoot you for pretty well constitutes that or I wouldn't be firing to start with. The intent is an also-ran. As is standard police doctrine in a riot.

Funny, in LA, when shop owners were pretty routinely SHOOTING rioters with AK's, I don't recall a single case being brought.

I realize that in some jurisdictions at some times, ridiculous prosecutions take place. That's not the norm, it's the exception. How would YOUR neighbors react if someone brought a civil suit for being ricocheted in the legs while attempting arson? Where I live? Ya, good luck with that.

 

[1337BaldEagle]

I realize that in some jurisdictions at some times, ridiculous prosecutions take place. That's not the norm

This is the exact point I was trying to make earlier to user "soberups" when he quote told me that...

wearing a provocative T-shirt and holding an AK in each hand. If the guy in the photo winds up having to use one of those guns for self defense, that photo could be used by the prosecution to bury him.

You miss understand my argument. I am attempting to be facetious by pointing out that someone who is worried about a photo being taken of you when you're doing nothing notably wrong or illegal shouldn't be trying to use methods of defense that leave it open for litigation.

It's just plain backwards and contradictory.

 

[Dave Workman]

But anyway,the kid having done a strong arm robbery has nothing to do with what happened with the shooting.

Well, we really don't know that for sure. One might theorize with some credence that Brown, being approached by a cop while his hand was wrapped around a pack of cigars just "might" have suspected the cop was stopping him for the shoplift and assault and decided he was not going quietly.

There appears to be some contradictory information floating around in media reports, as this column suggests:

Ferguson store owners take up arms, says report

A report broadcast yesterday on Fox News revealed that store owners in the St. Louis suburb of Ferguson — apparently astonished with the police reluctance to stop looters — have taken up arms to guard their businesses as unrest continues, despite Gov. Jay Nixon's imposition yesterday of a curfew.

<broken link removed>


One other thing that I find curious: Why were this guy and his buddy walking up the middle of the street in the first place? Who does that unless, a) he thinks he can get away with it, b) he wants to attract attention, or c) he's just plain nuts? (Perhaps a bit of all three?)

If officer Wilson did simply plug this guy while his hands were up, he'll go to trial for that.

But crowds of jerks taking advantage of a tragedy to loot and pillage is not acceptable. Neither is shooting an unarmed person unless there is a disparity of force issue, and Brown was a rather large young man. If he's the guy in the strong-arm video, and it appears he is, he'd just manhandled someone and his adrenaline might have been up.

I've forwarded lots of complaints about pop-ups to examiner. I don't control those.

 

[Just Jim]

This whole deal is like an episode of Bait Car.

 

[4Freedom]

I am not going to get any deeper involved in this drama bandwagon. I'm against police brutality as much anyone, but I believe the entire story about the robber and thug Michael Brown is a load of crap. Also, I doubt that the cop was some psycho path on a mission to massacre black people. THat is how the media is portraying it and some people here have bought into it. Sharpton and Jackson are doing their work well.

BTW.. Maybe, white people should start looting and robbing and pillaging too, when blacks massacre white people.. Al Sharpton didn't come to give a speech about how many of our white police officers are killed by black thugs..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_shootings_of_Oakland_police_officers

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of dangerous white criminals, but there is quite a large proportion of blacks who commit violent crimes and a lot of police officers may feel more uptight dealing with blacks in crime ridden neighborhoods because of their job experience, not racism. But , of course, all the bleeding hearts will cry out racism and how evil is "whitey". I know how tough and aggressive the culture is of Black Americans in this country. Anybody, who thinks there isn't a streak of violence and aggression in black American culture is naive. Look at the murder rates in all cities across America. In cities where black people predominate, there is highest rates of violent crime. If anyone needs me to post actual statistics, I will do so.

Also, there is considerable amount of racism against white people in black community too. I would say the racism against white people in their communities is worse than racism against blacks these days. I could only imagine what it is like to be a police officer operating in some of the dangerous slums in Midwest that have murder rates that are like 10-20 times as much as we would have in Seattle and where you, the police officer, are the minority.


By the way, did anyone hold any vigils for James Cooper and James Kouzaris when they were massacred by a black man, Shawn TYson, for simply being white? That's not a media story worth reporting.. After all, they are white.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ourists-vacationing-florida-article-1.1052354

 

[JVK]

 

[soberups]

To those who protest to the increasing "militarization" of our police, I would point out that, during the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout in 1997, we had cops armed with shotguns and 9mm handguns getting hosed down by bank robbers wearing armor and wielding AK-47's. The LAPD resorted to borrowing a private armored car and requisitioning high-powered rifles from a nearby gun store. The nature of the threats that our police are facing in todays world demands that they have the equipment to deal with those threats.

 

[slimmer13]

Didn't the gangsters of the prohibition era have automatic weapons?

 

[1337BaldEagle]

To those who protest to the increasing "militarization" of our police, I would point out that, during the North Hollywood bank robbery shootout in 1997, we had cops armed with shotguns and 9mm handguns getting hosed down by bank robbers wearing armor and wielding AK-47's. The LAPD resorted to borrowing a private armored car and requisitioning high-powered rifles from a nearby gun store. The nature of the threats that our police are facing in todays world demands that they have the equipment to deal with those threats.

I think it's good policy for then to have to ask before using. less likely abuse.

 

[4Freedom]

BREAKING NEWS.. Two police officers and a little girl shot by a black man.. Where is Al Sharpton?? Where is the outcry and the riots? Why on earth would the police ever be worried of people in the black community? Especially a cop who is a C***ka...

<broken link removed>

Is anyone going to sympathize for these two police officers who were shot trying to protect a young girl from the assailant Brandon Brewer?

Perhaps, we should just no longer allow white police in Ferguson, MO and let the town handle its own law enforcing that would not strain the tax dollars of American citizens. This would probably work out in a place like Montana, although something tells me that if the cops no longer operate in places like Ferguson, things will not get better there at all. It will just become an even greater warzone. Who will they have to blame then?

There are many neighborhoods where the police don't even bother going anymore, as the gangs have taken control of them and no department wants to deal with the drama of having to enforce laws in those warzone neighborhoods.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2012/10...says-war-like-detroit-is-unsafe-for-visitors/

 

[Bam]

Welcome to Murica. Were we hate the Government/Police so much, we consider a minority criminal a victim!