National Federal Gov Records on Nearly 1 Billion Gun Sales

[JohnnyMac]

Scanning is done in bulk, and extremely quickly. That's a surprisingly easy technical feat, one that has been around since the early 2000s.

FFL's need to wad up each paper 4473 before placing it back in the file cabinet, so you can't just stack them into a scanner and have to hand jam each one.

When the jack-booted thugs come a knockn' they aren't going to just collect the guns on your list, they will take all they can find.

This is why I have two safes. One for the guns I filled out paperwork on and the other for guns I have not.

 

[The Heretic]

I sold the gun in 1991 or thereabouts, way before I-594. However, in those times I typically made a note of whom I'd sold the gun to, just in case such inquiries should come up later. So I had this information when asked by this police dept. and I furnished it to them. However, it may have been completely useless due to the passage of over 25 years time.

When I used to go to WAC gun shows, I might take a gun to sell. It wasn't only Washington residents who were attending those shows. We had people from Oregon, Idaho, wherever, who were members. The membership badge didn't indicate state of residence. So if I was selling a handgun via personal sale, no FFL, I had to make sure I was selling to a Wash. resident. To do otherwise (except to an FFL dealer, which isn't what I'm talking about here) would've been a violation of federal law. So I'd ask to see ID. This was expecially important if the gun in question was one that I'd bought through an FFL dealer and it was papered to me.

I've got a big box of paperwork, notes, receipts, records, photos, of my firearm transactions that go back to 1965. Up to the cyber era, now I have later stuff on my PC and a couple of flash drives. So when anyone asks me about a gun I used to own, I can give an answer that is protective of myself. Actually, considering the many hundreds of guns I've owned over the years, I'm surprised I've only been asked once about this sort of thing.

You could sell a long gun to the resident of any state - if I remember the law correctly?

There is nothing in the law that says you have to keep a record of your sales - which IMO is a good thing as that way some of the guns I acquired privately are not on anybody's books.

I do get that keeping those records still protects you, but still, charges would not hold up in court.

 

[The Heretic]

FFL's need to wad up each paper 4473 before placing it back in the file cabinet, so you can't just stack them into a scanner and have to hand jam each one.

IIRC - it is the log books that the ATF looks at?

This is why I have two safes. One for the guns I filled out paperwork on and the other for guns I have not.

When they come for your guns, they won't stop at just the guns that are on the books, they will take everything, after they shoot your dog.

 

[red442joe]

Considering there are 393 million privately owned guns in the USA, that's a lot of resale of the same guns to get up to nearly 1 billion sales, (which do not account for private handshake deals).

LOLz

Joe

 

[red442joe]

When the jack-booted thugs come a knockn' they aren't going to just collect the guns on your list, they will take all they can find.

4th Amendment be damned!

Joe

 

[red442joe]

I sold the gun in 1991 or thereabouts, way before I-594. However, in those times I typically made a note of whom I'd sold the gun to, just in case such inquiries should come up later. So I had this information when asked by this police dept. and I furnished it to them. However, it may have been completely useless due to the passage of over 25 years time.

When I used to go to WAC gun shows, I might take a gun to sell. It wasn't only Washington residents who were attending those shows. We had people from Oregon, Idaho, wherever, who were members. The membership badge didn't indicate state of residence. So if I was selling a handgun via personal sale, no FFL, I had to make sure I was selling to a Wash. resident. To do otherwise (except to an FFL dealer, which isn't what I'm talking about here) would've been a violation of federal law. So I'd ask to see ID. This was expecially important if the gun in question was one that I'd bought through an FFL dealer and it was papered to me.

I've got a big box of paperwork, notes, receipts, records, photos, of my firearm transactions that go back to 1965. Up to the cyber era, now I have later stuff on my PC and a couple of flash drives. So when anyone asks me about a gun I used to own, I can give an answer that is protective of myself. Actually, considering the many hundreds of guns I've owned over the years, I'm surprised I've only been asked once about this sort of thing.

You have your own big searchable data base!

Joe

 

[Jay Walk]

Sigh, guys does anyone really still believe that when you buy a gun through an FFL that the Gov does not keep track of it? The tech has grown, there is no "undoing" this now. We can't put the genie back in the bottle. ALL the problems with "gun law" are all in the lap of gun owners who refuse to lift a finger to protect their rights. Depending on courts to undo law makers is just never going to happen. Get every gun owner and every freedom loving person you all know to VOTE well. Its the only way this ever gets better or at least slows down.

Yes, Lot's of people. Just scroll up

 

[red442joe]

Sigh, guys does anyone really still believe that when you buy a gun through an FFL that the Gov does not keep track of it? The tech has grown, there is no "undoing" this now. We can't put the genie back in the bottle. ALL the problems with "gun law" are all in the lap of gun owners who refuse to lift a finger to protect their rights. Depending on courts to undo law makers is just never going to happen. Get every gun owner and every freedom loving person you all know to VOTE well. Its the only way this ever gets better or at least slows down.

QFT

Joe

 

[RobMa]

Guess no one has to worry about form 1ing their pistol since there is definitive proof that they already have a defacto registry...

 

[gmerkt]

You could sell a long gun to the resident of any state - if I remember the law correctly?

There is nothing in the law that says you have to keep a record of your sales - which IMO is a good thing as that way some of the guns I acquired privately are not on anybody's books.

I do get that keeping those records still protects you, but still, charges would not hold up in court.

Federal law, it's been okay to sell a long gun to out of state rez for as long as I can remember. Handguns, a no-no since 1968. It was handguns I was concerned with.

Pre-I-594, no, in Wash. we didn't need to keep records by law. But for guns papered to me, all types, it was my personal practice to do so. It's less costly to explain to a detective where the gun went than to pay to do it later in court. I had in mind the scenario, "where were you on the night of..." after the police had found one of my former guns in a dumpster after having been used in a murder.

One thing about the old way of buying guns in private sales. There was always the chance there was something dodgy about the history of the gun and you'd have no way to know about it. When you buy from an FFL dealer, your history with the gun starts the date of the paperwork. Take the good with the bad.

 

[gmerkt]

When they come for your guns, they won't stop at just the guns that are on the books, they will take everything,

This is pretty typical when they are executing a warrant. The guys doing the rounding up don't know to differentiate from one item to another, they box it all up and let someone else figure it out.

 

[The Heretic]

Federal law, it's been okay to sell a long gun to out of state rez for as long as I can remember. Handguns, a no-no since 1968. It was handguns I was concerned with.

Pre-I-594, no, in Wash. we didn't need to keep records by law. But for guns papered to me, all types, it was my personal practice to do so. It's less costly to explain to a detective where the gun went than to pay to do it later in court. I had in mind the scenario, "where were you on the night of..." after the police had found one of my former guns in a dumpster after having been used in a murder.

One thing about the old way of buying guns in private sales. There was always the chance there was something dodgy about the history of the gun and you'd have no way to know about it. When you buy from an FFL dealer, your history with the gun starts the date of the paperwork. Take the good with the bad.

IIRC, it used to be only contiguous (adjacent) states, and then in 1986 that changed.

I was under the impression that it could be private sales, but reading now that it is only thru FFLs?

FFL Sales | Out of state firearms sales - FFLTRUST.COM

The obvious rules are pretty easy to follow about FFL Sales. Don't sell any gun to someone if you know it to be a straw purchase. Know more about FFL Sales

www.ffltrust.com

May a licensee sell a firearm to a nonlicensee who is a resident of another state? | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Generally, a firearm may not lawfully be sold by a licensee to a nonlicensee who resides in a state other than the state in which the seller’s licensed premises is located. However, the sale may be made if the firearm is shipped to a licensee whose business is in the purchaser’s state of...

www.atf.gov

I don't worry about it much anymore as all sales in west coast states must go thru an FFL.

 

[The Heretic]

One thing about the old way of buying guns in private sales. There was always the chance there was something dodgy about the history of the gun and you'd have no way to know about it. When you buy from an FFL dealer, your history with the gun starts the date of the paperwork. Take the good with the bad.

True, but at least in Orygun, you could call into the OSP with the serial # and check on its stolen status - but other crime status would still be an issue, and still is, although there would be a record of the sale, so if the crime happened before the sale then you theoretically would not be held accountable.

 

[monkeybutler]

One thing about the old way of buying guns in private sales. There was always the chance there was something dodgy about the history of the gun and you'd have no way to know about it. When you buy from an FFL dealer, your history with the gun starts the date of the paperwork. Take the good with the bad.

I have called local police with serial numbers and they were happy to tell me pistols were not reported stolen. Of course that no longer matters with the only FFL thing now.

 

[GWS]

Kinda makes me wonder if any FFLs will suddenly get in boating accidents the day they close up shop... A lot of that going around lately, could be contagious!

They have shop fires from what I hear.

And accidents with fire sprinklers. I'd get a big laugh at some FFL handing over buckets of paper mush that used to be 4473s

 

[The Heretic]

And accidents with fire sprinklers. I'd get a big laugh at some FFL handing over buckets of paper mush that used to be 4473s

Yes, one of the FFLs I have bought a gun or two from had a small little hole in the wall shop. IIRC he talked about fires and boating accidents a couple of times.

Then there are the FFLs who die unexpectedly and for whatever reason their records cannot be found.

This is one reason to prefer the small FFLs over the big corporations. That said, the big corporations often go on forever(ish), so they theoretically never turn in their records.

 

[po18guy]

We need a court ruling on the constitutionality of the federal government disarming the militia. Couple of centuries ago, the State of Maryland refused to pay taxes to the federal government. Went to court. Lost. The Fed usually prevails, since it is a Fed court on the Fed payroll that decides.

 

[gmerkt]

I have called local police with serial numbers and they were happy to tell me pistols were not reported stolen.

Years ago, one of my neighbors was a county sheriff's deputy. He said he'd do the same thing, but if the number came back bad, he'd have to confiscate the gun. And of course, he wasn't available to go along with me to gun shows and run numbers in advance.

 

[gmerkt]

although there would be a record of the sale

Before FFL transaction was required for private transfer, firearms might change hands any number of times since the last time it was on paper.

at least in Orygun, you could call into the OSP with the serial # and check on its stolen status

I've been told several times that a private citizen cannot access information available from the NCIC. As I said in post #58, above, I had an LEO neighbor who would do it, but on an official request basis and if the number came back as positive on NCIC, he had to take the gun. The NCIC is federal, but I guess OSP might do what they want with the info.

Just because a firearm transaction goes through an FFL during sale, doesn't mean that it couldn't be a stolen gun. I don't think there is any uniformity from jurisdiction to jurisdiction on a requirement to run a check on it. Some cities require dealers to submit reports to local PD for used firearms they take in. Some states have it built in to their process. Usually, they have a wait period before they can turn around and sell the gun, allowing time for a check to be made. But I'm pretty sure there are plenty of guns that don't get checked. And within this body of unchecked guns, there are some guns that have been stolen at some time in the past. But a new buyer will have new paper, which clears him of any previous criminal activity related to that particular gun. Worst case, the cops seize the gun, he loses his money. If bought from a dealer, you could get the money back from him. If a private deal, that wouldn't be assured.

 

[Jay Walk]

The Fed's compiled a list of nearly one BILLION firearm sales all from closed FFL paperwork?


uhhhhhh......... Okay