Father Son Transfer Question

[LyleLovett666]

A few months back my pop expressed interest in getting his first firearm. I decided to surprise him,so I put a bid on a pistol on gun broker & I won. I had the gun shipped to an ffl close to where he lives & went down with him to go through the process when the gun arrived. I was informed by the ffl that since the gun arrived with my name on it,they could not run the check on my father & that when I was cleared we'd have to go back & then have my pops go through the process. My thought is that they're just trying to double dip on the transfer process. Am I wrong?

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[IronMonster]

Well, You can give a firearm gift to your father under the current law. You can do the transfer and just give it to him as in "here dad, Hope you like it"

So yes, I think they are trying to stick you.

Here is the pertinent part

(4) This section does not apply to: (a) A transfer between immediate family members, which for this subsection shall be limited to spouses, domestic partners, parents, children, siblings, grandparents, grandchildren, nieces, nephews, first cousins, aunts, and uncles, that is a bona fide gift;

 

[Joe13]

No, you are the only person that can recieve that firearm unfortunately.

The ffl is right as far as the law is concerned.

Edit: is my understanding. Maybe a transfer would be possible but not sure if you are not physically there.

 

[LyleLovett666]

Someone on another site pointed me to a loophole in washingtons new law that allows person to person transfers between immediate family members. My ffl is either trying to double dip on transfer fees or ignorant of the new law. No matter now that I'm aware. Thank all for the info.

 

[etrain16]

I don't know if this is as much about I-594 as it is about the ATF 4473 form. If you told the FFL that you're there to buy the gun for your father, well then, as I've understood it, you'd be lying on the 4473 if you said you were buying it for yourself, and that's a problem for the FFL.

Rather than involve the FFL in anything further, it would be best to go there by yourself, make the purchase in your name and go on your merry way. No discussion about it being a potential gift. It's just your new gun. If later, even that night, you choose to make it a gift to your father, then simply hand it to him as a gift. Nice and easy and legal.

Whatever you do, don't make the gift there at the FFL and don't have any more discussions about buying it as a gift. Even though it's fine for you to do that, from the FFL's point of view, they need to know that you're buying that gun for yourself.

Something else to consider is that some FFL's are really up on the laws, others may not be as keen to how things work. So he may be double dipping, or he may just not understand the whole process.

 

[Joe13]

Look up gun straw buyers.

 

[etrain16]

Look up gun straw buyers.

Yep, good point. Best to never discuss a gun you're buying for a gift for someone else. If the FFL has any reason to believe that's a veiled attempt at a straw purchase, you're likely to get stopped on the spot.

 

[LyleLovett666]

Looks like the straw bs would apply. Pops will just have to do a nics & wait. Thanks for the heads up on all this bs. Much appreciated.

 

[Koda]

your case sounds awfully similar to the Abramski vs. United States straw purchase case... where Abramski was convicted for buying a gun for his uncle, both were legal to own guns at the time...

I can see why the ffl would not do the initial transfer to your dad.

 

[billdeserthills]

I think it sucks that where you live you can't give your old man a gift, if you want. I got my Dad a sig p238 last month and just handed it to him, with a Happy B-day Dad! The feds can shove it if they think I will let their bs ruin my gift

 

[DONOTBUGME]

your case sounds awfully similar to the Abramski vs. United States straw purchase case... where Abramski was convicted for buying a gun for his uncle, both were legal to own guns at the time...

I can see why the ffl would not do the initial transfer to your dad.

In that case the uncle wrote a check to the nephew for the amount of the gun with, glock in the memo. This was done with intention to avoid the back ground check for the uncle. So the nephew wasn't gifting the weapon but acting for the uncle.

 

[The Heretic]

Look up gun straw buyers.

A "straw buyer" is where you are buying given one or both of the two following conditions:

a) The person you are buying for is not qualified to buy/own themselves.

b) It is not a gift and the person who is the intended recipient is paying you for the firearm, regardless of their qualifications to buy a firearm.

If you buy a firearm as a gift, and the person receiving the gift is qualified under all applicable laws (including interstate/intrastate transfer laws) to receive the gift, then you are good to give the gift and the recipient is good to receive it, under present federal and WA state and OR state laws.

E.G., I cannot give my brother in CA state a firearm as a present without going through an FFL to do an interstate transfer, but I can give one to my daughter here in Oregon, or my other brother here in Oregon, as long as it is an actual gift and they don't reimburse me in any way for the purchase.

I am not sure, but I think there are some exceptions in some cases regarding inheritance and interstate transfers. I could be wrong.

 

[The Heretic]

In that case the uncle wrote a check to the nephew for the amount of the gun with, glock in the memo. This was done with intention to avoid the back ground check for the uncle. So the nephew wasn't gifting the weapon but acting for the uncle.

It was done with the intention to get the uncle a LEO discount.

IIRC, the nephew was legal to buy the firearm himself, he just wanted the discount.

You can be perfectly legal to buy the firearm, but if someone else purchases it for you and then transfers it to you, and you reimburse them, that is still violating the law.

 

[The Heretic]

Yep, good point. Best to never discuss a gun you're buying for a gift for someone else. If the FFL has any reason to believe that's a veiled attempt at a straw purchase, you're likely to get stopped on the spot.

I agree - to a point. Avoid the hassle for everybody even though it is perfectly legal.

IIRC, I think the last firearm I bought from an FFL, I may have mentioned that it was a gift for a family member and it didn't cause a problem, but why bother them with the details? It isn't relevant given the current laws on the book.

 

[Velzey]

None computer savvy older get asks him to find a firearm for him on that computer thing! Found and ordered, shipped to ffl.

Received by ffl, and then two guys come over when the transfer is to be done..
It was all done innocent enough and no ill will intended, but ..
Have to look at it from the ffl holders side of things. Is this transfer going to make me lose my license (and livelihood) if it is a straw sale? Yes!
So the proper thing to do and easiest thing to do, is to do two transfers...
All good then!

 

[PiratePast40]

Isn't it great that we can all jump through legal hoops like trained seals? I'm sure it's worth it as long as it saves just one life!

 

[Koda]

yeah cause we know how much crime this prevents.... cause criminals love to be honest on the 4473.

 

[The Heretic]

Isn't it great that we can all jump through legal hoops like trained seals? I'm sure it's worth it as long as it saves just one life!

The life you save may be your own - you don't want to become Bubba's room-mate in prison.

For now, obey the law and stay out of trouble.

 

[clearconscience]

Unless you could be one of obama's sons. Then no matter how many straw purchases you made they will just plea you out for probation.

 

[IronMonster]

I think you guys are making this way more complicated that need be.

The law is simple and clear. You cannot act as a buyer for ANYONE, either a prohibited or non prohibited person. If you are buying a firearm to give as a gift to your father YOU ARE THE BUYER, you are not acting as a buyer for anyone. Even with Washington's bastard law you can buy the gun as a gift with the intent to give it as a gift to one of the named family members listed in the I594 exemption.

If it was not a gift, if your dad was giving you money to buy it for him that is a crime (a dumb crime, but still a crime) But that is not what we are talking about.

There is no need to do two transfers. You are the buyer, you answer the question truthfully that you are and then you give it to your dad as a gift. That is 100% on the up and up, there is not even any gray area.