Expandable Baton (ASP) Laws In Oregon ???

Discussion in 'Knives & Other Discussion' started by arjunki, Mar 24, 2011.

  1. arjunki

    arjunki
    Beaverton
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    I was wondering if any of you have info/experience on certification training and/or laws regarding the legal concealed carry of expandable batons amongst civilians here in Oregon? I know that in some states they are not legal for civilian use at all and are viewed harshly.
    asp-526.jpg
     
  2. saxon

    saxon
    springfield
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    The law is a bit vague on the matter of batons.

    Under ORS 166.240, it is illegal to carry certain weapons concealed (it is not illegal to carry weapons other than firearms openly, mind you). What weapons?
    "any knife having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slungshot, metal knuckles, or any similar instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person"

    You will note that baton-like implements are never mentioned. However that last part "any similar instrument" could be interpreted by a police officer and the court to cover them.

    Oregon's concealed carry licenses are called "Concealed Handgun Permits" (per 166.291) so they do not apply to weapons besides handguns.

    So, because the law is not all that clear, carrying a baton for self-defense would be a calculated risk that only you can decide if you are willing to take, based on these pros and cons:

    Pros:
    -It is NOT illegal to carry it openly. A belt pouch is only considered open carry if no shirt, jacket or other clothing covers it and the pouch doesn't cover it from view.
    -Vague laws are unconstitutional, under the principle of "vagueness doctrine." One could easily argue this in court as well.
    -Having an ASP or other baton certification adds credibility to you as a person who only wants to defend themselves, not use it in a malicious manner.
    -If you do carry concealed, police will in theory never catch you unless you behave in a blatantly stupid manner that attracts them to search you in the first place.

    Cons:
    -If you carry openly, you will be legally carrying, but you will also risk reactions from people around you. If someone calls the police, they will show up and give you a hard time in public and ask lots of uncomfortable questions. And if you get an officer who has a poor understanding of the law and "concealed," he may arrest you anyway.
    -Batons require training to use properly. Just buying one and thinking you know what you're doing is an invitation to getting beaten with your own weapon.
    Source(s):
    http://www.leg.state.or.us/ors/166.html



    also



    You would need a concealed weapon's permit to carry it. Just like you would to carry brass knuckles concealed. If you were carrying it concealed. But unless you are ASP certified the courts will consider it a deadly weapon, the same as a knife or a gun. An ASP baton is only considered a "less lethal" force option if it's being used by someone who is trained and certified to use it in that manner.
    Source(s):
    10+ years law enforcement.
     
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  3. Redrum

    Redrum
    Portlandia
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    carry this: City Stick : Walking Sticks (Cold Steel)

    or somthing similar....its totally legal in every state and per the ADA (americans with disabilites) act..no one can ask you what your disability is or refuse you entrance if your carrying it (including the TSA). which means you can fly with a cane.

    Having carried an ASP for 12 years and hit a number of people with it in my career, I can tell you its a piece of crap...I have see them bent on people without getting the desired compliance..wooden stick or PR-24 is a different world tho
     
  4. The B

    The B
    NW Oregon
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    "any other similar instrument" is way too broad, and an ASP is not "similar" to a smilie, brass knuckles, nor dirks or daggers. unless you're really doing something stupid, even if you find yourself searched, you're not going to have any problems.
     
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  5. The B

    The B
    NW Oregon
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    and, just to be argumentative... this is actually not wholly true, in Oregon. while it definitely applies to things like non-firearms, possessing an Oregon CHP nullifies all of 166.250... you can carry ANY loaded firearm in your vehicle and concealed on your person, if you have a CHP, according to 166.260, and furthermore, 166.262 actually, specifically, prohibits a law enforcement officer from arresting somebody possessing a valid CHP for violations of 166.250.

    so, as i said, this has nothing to do with the OP's question, but i often hear it said "a concealed handgun permit means handgun," when it actually does give you a bit more liberty than that.
     
  6. bushnell18

    bushnell18
    Southern Oregon
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    ORS 166.250 has nothing to do with anything but firearms. 166.240 is where it deals with concealed weapons other than handguns, so having a CHP does only apply to firearms.
    But with regards to the OP: I doubt that any police officer, let alone a jury would see a baton as falling into the definition in 166.240 as a weapon. But it would be prudent to ask the local police chief or sheriff on his/her personal stance and department policies, just to be safe. Maybe the DA too.
     
  7. The B

    The B
    NW Oregon
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    I wasn't implying it did- just that it deals with "firearms," not "handguns." Like I said, it was an off-topic point.
     
  8. rrojohnso

    rrojohnso
    Vancouver, WA
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    For the record, while I was in LE, we didn't focus on the ASP or similar expendable baton. Though not common in the hands of civilians, and a surprise from time to time, it was not an issue. Further, there is a spring that protects it from expanding when being carried, which is opposite of the 'switch-blade' provision explained in the law.

    If you feel the desire to carry it, do so. But if ever FI'd by an officer, I would disclose you have it if he asks if you're carrying any 'weapons.'
     
  9. OFADAN

    OFADAN
    Brownsville, OR
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    BTW, FI means "Field Interview" for those of you who do not follow LEO vernacular!
     
  10. DoubleTapDrew

    DoubleTapDrew
    Oregon
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    Is that police speak for "slam you up against the car and spread your legs with feet"
     
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  11. M67

    M67
    NW Oregon
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    I have tried to figure the OR Statutes out as well. I guess you have to be a judge on the Oregon Supreme Court, to know the laws.

    For instance. the laws concerning Batons.

    166.240
    (1) Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, any person who carries concealed upon the person any knife having a blade that projects or swings into position by force of a spring or by centrifugal force, any dirk, dagger, ice pick, slungshot, metal knuckles, or any similar instrument by the use of which injury could be inflicted upon the person or property of any other person, commits a Class B misdemeanor.
    ( as i see the law, a pencil or pen is a lethal weapon in the proper hands, because it could be used to inflict injury or death!)

    ORS 166.360 to 166.380, unless the context requires otherwise:
    (f) A club, bat, baton, billy club, bludgeon, knobkerrie, nunchaku, nightstick, truncheon or any similar instrument, the use of which could inflict injury upon a person or property; or

    (g) A dangerous or deadly weapon as those terms are defined in ORS 161.015. [1969 c.705 §1; 1977 c.769 §2; 1979 c.398 §1; 1989 c.982 §4; 1993 c.741 §2; 1999 c.577 §2; 1999 c.782 §6; 2001 c.201 §1]

    My question is this...
    Why does 166.240 not list a baton, while ORS 166.360 to 166.380 does?

    I am allowed to carry a loaded handgun with a CHL( a lethal weapon), but possibly not a baton that is considered to be less than lethal by "LEO" standards.

    Am i missing something here?

    I think the more options a person has at there disposal as less than lethal weapons would be an excellent option before deploying a firearm.
     
  12. DK47

    DK47
    Beaverton, OR
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    Wait... Civilians can get ASP certified?
     
  13. saxon

    saxon
    springfield
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    yes if you can find a class, i wish i could so i could carry both

     
  14. Jonnyuma

    Jonnyuma
    A Dirty Little Town in NW Oregon
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    5 yr anniversary of the last post... what are the odds!?!

    As members come and go, the knowledge base fluctuates.

    I was thinking about LTL weapons tonight after a convenience store situation in NE PDX. It boiled down to a LARGE, heavily inked drunk. He was boisterous as hell and switched randomly from belligerent to effusive... unstable and unpredictable. When he eventually fixed on me he got way into my personal space, but at that moment he was being "friendly drunk" so I tried to keep him talking and get him outside, away from the other customers.

    I got him out of the store but the whole time I'm thinking that if this guy turns on me my only choice is to knuckle-it-out or shoot him... neither option was appealing.

    I've looked into ASP batons before, thinking that a 16" friction lock with a flashlight endcap would give me plausible deniability in a work situation among the straights, but I don't need or want legal hassles.

    A 4 cell Maglight would be a substitute, but I'm not LE, I don't wear a duty belt. I'd like something more compact.

    Any new or decisive info on this subject?
     
  15. Stomper

    Stomper
    SCREW YOU SALEM!!
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    Just be careful not to get your ASP in a sling!
     
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  16. Jonnyuma

    Jonnyuma
    A Dirty Little Town in NW Oregon
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    I've continued to read since I posted and it looks like openly carrying a baton is probably okay... a definite maybe.

    Concealing one is a no-no according to the precedent set by a couple of court cases, CHL or not.

    Apparently your only options are unarmed self defense mano a mano or draw your weapon. LTL is not a thing in a lot of states. Freakin ridiculous.
     
  17. B3dlam

    B3dlam
    Astoria, OR
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    Unless you're willing to put a lot of time and effort into training a baton may not be a good option either they are also considered a higher level of force due to the higher potential for severe bodily harm if improperly used (e.g. strikes to the head, joints, etc). For a belligerent drunk OC will likely solve most situations.

    If you want something you can get away with carrying anywhere get some training on the proper use of a kubaton and get yourself a solid 'tacti-cool' pen.
     
  18. Jonnyuma

    Jonnyuma
    A Dirty Little Town in NW Oregon
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    I'm looking into OC gel.
    The ORS that has been interpreted to mean that batons are illegal would probably hang you on a "tactical pen" too. The law states (not quoting) that the item is illegal if it's intended to be used as a weapon. You could argue in court that the "tactical pen's" main purpose is writing, just like you could attempt to make the case that the baton is really a flashlight or a tire thumper... maybe it'd work, maybe not.
    Using a regular pen, flashlight, skillet, or chair as a defensive weapon doesn’t mean you won't get hooked up, but there won't likely be a weapons charge.

    Like I said, I'm looking into OC sprays, non-lethal but generally effective.
     
  19. B3dlam

    B3dlam
    Astoria, OR
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    I think you'd likely have a far easier time arguing a pen is merely a pen than arguing a baton is a flashlight. The baton is designed, marketed, and sold as a baton the flashlight endcap is an accessory for said baton. That being said a decent quality metal body pen will serve the same purpose and you can get them from companies like fisher, sharpie, etc.

    With OC have you ever been sprayed/exposed? I know its not required but definitely something to consider. Its good to know what its like as there is the potential you may accidently get exposed. Far less likely with gel vs the fogger variety but still something to consider.
     
  20. Jonnyuma

    Jonnyuma
    A Dirty Little Town in NW Oregon
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    I guess I was just thinking of some of the more radical looking, purpose-built tac pens I've seen.

    Personally I'd much prefer a striking weapon over an edged or other contact weapon. I say that fully realizing that a baton would be close to useless in a grappling situation, especially in its extended state. Trust me, you wouldn't have been too keen to have this particular dude bleeding on you either.
    Yes, I've experienced OC and a Taser as well as a handheld stun gun and CS gas (the last one several times.) All under nonviolent "familiarization" excercises I should add ;)
     

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