Everybody's favorite hoax is back!

[Bigfoot]

But I'm in Portland... The '90s never died here.

The place where young people go to retire.

 

[Trlsmn]

You guys should go try that somewhere on a small scale and get back to us in a few decades on how it went. My prediction is: Corporatocracy would reign in short order and "might" would "make right". I looked over the Libertarian platform you folks seem to be preaching from and frankly it looks like a chaotic disaster to me. A lot of it sounds great if you picture a mercantile economy of small shops and craftsmen but that's not reality now is it? I see nothing there at all that puts any brakes on monopoly and corporate abuse of power, you just gonna take them to court and claim they did you harm when they poison the air? You against their wheelbarrows of cash and phalanx of legal counsel... good luck with that. Much of the thinking seems routed in J.S. Mill's "harm" concept of liberty but even Mill recognized the difficultly of trying to put this into practice in any remotely pure form..... and he was writing a century and a half ago. Take a look at chapter 5 of "On Liberty" if you don't believe me.

You have no faith in your fellow man, you feel the government is the parent of the people. I know that when people realize that there is no free ride from the people that work for their money those freeriders will start working and will actually live better more fullfilling lives than they do now waiting around for the free crumbs from their government sponsored lives.

Socialism brings society down and does harm in the long run. The problem with people that think like you is they, you, think that people are worthless as a whole and you need the government as a parent to tell you what to do. I on the other hand know that humans are capable of great things and with proper values and a sense of responsibility humans are capable of doing the right thing. Socialism has destroyed values and responsibility, it is the problem not the answer

 

[Chee-to]

Global cooling ?.......................

 

[locobob]

You have no faith in your fellow man, you feel the government is the parent of the people. I know that when people realize that there is no free ride from the people that work for their money those freeriders will start working and will actually live better more fullfilling lives than they do now waiting around for the free crumbs from their government sponsored lives.

Socialism brings society down and does harm in the long run. The problem with people that think like you is they, you, think that people are worthless as a whole and you need the government as a parent to tell you what to do. I on the other hand know that humans are capable of great things and with proper values and a sense of responsibility humans are capable of doing the right thing. Socialism has destroyed values and responsibility, it is the problem not the answer

I have faith that my fellow man will act in their own short term self interest - usually being considerate enough not to cause direct harm to others. I have faith that a good portion of my fellow man will act with kindness and charity toward others so long as the imposition isn't great. I do not have faith that my fellow man will act in the long term common interest of mankind without either social pressure or government intervention - be it by carrot or stick.

I have no faith at all in business acting in any manner other than to make a profit. Corporations do not have a conscience, they have shareholder value to maximize. If they are not artificially restrained they will always act in accordance with the profit motive.

 

[dmancornell]

^

And who better to determine the "long term common interest of mankind" than a bunch of elitist, power-mad psychopaths (i.e. all governments in recorded history)?

 

[locobob]

Back on topic: I don't know if man-made global warming is reality or not. I don't think anyone can know for sure.
I do know that mans activity can; poison rivers, tear down mountains, irradiate large swaths of land, hunt or fish a species to extinction, choke the air with smog, etc. etc. As such I think the preponderance of the evidence says man is indeed capable of adversely effecting the earths environment on a global scale. So yes, I think we need to take the possibility of global warming seriously and act in a prudent/preventative manner.
Any good outdoorsman is taught to respect the land and to try to leave as small a footprint as possible, why shouldn't we seek to apply the same to all walks of life?

 

[BrentN]

Isn't part of the profit motive to keep customers happy and provide good service?

Question: Why doesn't the USPS simply raise their rates to stay, at least, cost neutral? (for reference- <broken link removed> ) I think I know the answer, but would like to hear other opinions.

Where is the conscience of my postal carrier when he puts my box of checks in someone elses community mail box? Where is the conscience of the postal worker that I talk to on the phone about my mail getting wet every time it rains and their response is "I don't know if we own that and can't help you with your problem" with what I can only describe as a spacey and careless attitude? My neighbors and I regularly re-sort our mail, and nobody at the local P.O. seems to care much. Fed-Ex and UPS don't treat me nearly this bad. Anecdotal, or a microcosm?

 

[locobob]

Isn't part of the profit motive to keep customers happy and provide good service?

Question: Why doesn't the USPS simply raise their rates to stay, at least, cost neutral? (for reference- <broken link removed> ) I think I know the answer, but would like to hear other opinions.

Where is the conscience of my postal carrier when he puts my box of checks in someone elses community mail box? Where is the conscience of the postal worker that I talk to on the phone about my mail getting wet every time it rains and their response is "I don't know if we own that and can't help you with your problem" with what I can only describe as a spacey and careless attitude? My neighbors and I regularly re-sort our mail, and nobody at the local P.O. seems to care much. Fed-Ex and UPS don't treat me nearly this bad. Anecdotal, or a microcosm?

I've had good and bad experiences with both USPS and UPS, think that's going off on a tangent anyhow.
What I was getting at is that when a corporation is faced with a choice between protecting the environment and making money... they will choose to make money. This is correct and proper behavior for a corporation. It is the job of the government to set the ground-rules for the conduct of business and in my opinion restricting pollutants is a legitimate exercise of that power.

 

[dmancornell]

I've had good and bad experiences with both USPS and UPS, think that's going off on a tangent anyhow.
What I was getting at is that when a corporation is faced with a choice between protecting the environment and making money... they will choose to make money. This is correct and proper behavior for a corporation. It is the job of the government to set the ground-rules for the conduct of business and in my opinion restricting pollutants is a legitimate exercise of that power.

LOL, what ground rules. Are you telling me sycophants like GE abide by the same rules as small businesses or other companies that refuse to pay-to-play? Here's an example of the government *not* giving a crap about the environment: have you noticed winter gas didn't kick in the last couple years? Big surprise, the EPA quietly removed the requirement because Obambi wants to get re-elected... can't have high gas prices get in the way. Oh they care sooooo much about the environment indeed.

By the way, corporations still have to deal with shareholders and customers who might object to environmental damage, unelected bureaucrats couldn't care less. The real reason the EPA exists is to use its illegitimate power to profit by peddling off the quotas to the highest bidder.

 

[locobob]

LOL, what ground rules. Are you telling me sycophants like GE abide by the same rules as small businesses or other companies that refuse to pay-to-play? Here's an example of the government *not* giving a crap about the environment: have you noticed winter gas didn't kick in the last couple years? Big surprise, the EPA quietly removed the requirement because Obambi wants to get re-elected... can't have high gas prices get in the way. Oh they care sooooo much about the environment indeed.

By the way, corporations still have to deal with shareholders and customers who might object to environmental damage, unelected bureaucrats couldn't care less. The real reason the EPA exists is to use its illegitimate power to profit by peddling off the quotas to the highest bidder.

That's why I keep saying we need to reclaim our government and restore "rule of law".
I know you'd rather just kill it... I think that creates more problems than it solves.... We are just going to have to disagree on that.

 

[dmancornell]

That's why I keep saying we need to reclaim our government and restore "rule of law".
I know you'd rather just kill it... I think that creates more problems than it solves.... We are just going to have to disagree on that.

Right, you want to "reclaim the government" so it can wield power your way, by raping the economic rights of some people for others' benefit. No thanks. Better to destroy any concentration of power so no one may be corrupted by it.

By the way, there is no point restoring the "rule of law" when the law itself is hopelessly corrupted. Read this for some insight: Amazon.com: The Law (9781612930121): Frederic Bastiat: Books

 

[lonegunman]

Predicting the climate with the information currently available is like predicting the realibility of a new car in twenty years based on how it drove that first day. They have no valid information and they are not willing to use valid information if it causes them to have an answer outside of their social agenda. Whatever climate change exists, these are not the people to believe on the subject.

 

[BrentN]

Yep, definitely off track, sorry. And I will agree that the gov needs to be reined in, and I think this would be easier to accomplish if they were not in control of major aspects of our lives; education, finance, transportation, healthcare, energy. I'm in the camp that believes we should be providing for our own resources, and I firmly believe that we could do it safer, cleaner, more effectively, and at a cheaper end-cost to ourselves and the enviroment than those nations that we are instead enriching.