Escalation to use of force.

[sobo]

Well, maybe you had a 'halo' above your head during whatever 'experiences' you had with ''child custody' but this father didn't and definitely made a bad decision.

I certainly understand, and no doubt 'acquiesce' with his emotions but they do NOT qualify him as a 'moron'.

Maybe I'm just more in control of my emotions, even when my ex repeatedly and deliberately used my kids as a bludgeon against me.
Yet I maintained decorum and my composure, as difficult as it was and with even my better angels telling me to rip her a new one.
The fact that I was able to control my emotions, and Dead Guy was not, leads me to conclude that he was a moron. Morons lack self-control...

If you haven't seen my edit to my original post that you quoted, then may I suggest that you scroll back up and read it.
It will elucidate much for you from my perspective in relation to this discussion...

 

[RVTECH]

Morons lack self-control...

Well then we were BOTH lucky we exhibited self control in our experiences - but without knowing the father we cannot honestly say he was a moron.

 

[Alexx1401]

Maybe I'm just more in control of my emotions, even when my ex repeatedly and deliberately used my kids as a bludgeon against me.
The fact that I was able to control my emotions, and Dead Guy was not, leads me to conclude that he was a moron. Morons lack self-control...

If you haven't seen my edit to my original post that you quoted, then may I suggest that you scroll back and read it.
It will elucidate much for you from my perspective in relation to this discussion...

VERY sadly this kind of thing is "normally" the result of someone who got away with acting like a 4 year old in an adult body for a long time. When mistakes do not cause pain over a long period of time people often win a Darwin Award all of a sudden. This is RARELY the first time someone decided they did not need to control themselves. Get away with it enough times and many are shocked the first time it blows up in their face

 

[sobo]

Well then we were BOTH lucky we exhibited self control in our experiences - but without knowing the father we cannot honestly say he was a moron.

He lacked self-control AND refused to restrain himself, or even leave, after a firearm was discharged in his direction (whether legally discharged or not).
That's good enough for me to make my declaration.

And I don't consider it "lucky" that I exhibited self-control in my experiences. It's who I have grown to be.
I have a firm handle on my temper and emotions...

 

[sobo]

VERY sadly this kind of thing is "normally" the result of someone who got away with acting like a 4 year old in an adult body for a long time.

Yes, that was quite true in my case.

When mistakes do not cause pain over a long period of time people often win a Darwin Award all of a sudden.

I exhibit more self-control than to give her that satisfaction. Nothing is so infuriating to a person as someone who does not react in kind to that person's anger. Your dad knew that, judging by your story about being cornered by the neighbor's dog.

This is RARELY the first time someone decided they did not need to control themselves. Get away with it enough times and many are shocked the first time it blows up in their face

Indeed...

 

[RVTECH]

He lacked self-control and refused to restrain himself after a firearm was discharged in his direction. That's good enough for me to make my declaration.

I agree completely and this supports the possibility of previous issues between the BF and the father - and had probably been problematic in the past.

 

[Cavedweller]

not enough info to judge this, but I have 2 questions... does the states even have a written castle law and does it allow for curtalage (outside the home walls) and was the father allowed to be there by arraingement with his ex to pick up his kid at that time?

As I gathered from reading the articles:

TX is a castle law state.
Don't know about curtilage. Not mentioned in the articles.
According to the article, he was there at his court appointed time. Ex and boyfriend stated the kids weren't there.

 

[Koda]

As I gathered from reading the articles:

TX is a castle law state.
Don't know about curtilage. Not mentioned in the articles.
According to the article, he was there at his court appointed time. Ex and boyfriend stated the kids weren't there.

Curtilage will be an important part on the shooting, some states do not include curtilage... my guess is TX does but then if I recall each state defines or includes curtilage differently. Im not certain a porch would qualify.... and then...
if he had a legal right to be there and the ex didn't deliver the kids at the court appointed time that's not gonna look good for the boyfriend coming out with a gun.

lots more questions to judge this but that's a start.

 

[sobo]

Over child custody, FFS.
My ex used to play games like that, and her intent was to get me to loose my cool.
I wonder what kind of lies the mom will tell her kids over the years.

Mine played the same game. I figured out how to win, without ever losing my cool...

 

[Member 53328]

Curtilage will be an important part on the shooting, some states do not include curtilage... my guess is TX does but then if I recall each state defines or includes curtilage differently. Im not certain a porch would qualify.... and then...
if he had a legal right to be there and the ex didn't deliver the kids at the court appointed time that's not gonna look good for the boyfriend coming out with a gun.

lots more questions to judge this but that's a start.

I know that curtilage can differ in definition. But most times (such as a regard to searching) if it's up against the house you would need a warrant. But let's say your trash can was out on the street you no longer have a right to privacy and LE no longer needs a search warrant to go through it. Not sure how that would play into the castle doctrine and use of force. I did run into it when it requesting search warrants, or if there wasn't enough PC you would wait until it was put out away from the house.

 

[Tony617]

I'm always amazed when people will continue to challenge a dude holding a gun. Reminds me a bit of that couple that were killed earlier this year when they got into a beef with the neighbor across the street over snow removal.

Man Shoots Couple, Then Himself, After Snow-Shoveling Dispute

 

[sobo]

I'm always amazed when people will continue to challenge a dude holding a gun. Reminds me a bit of that couple that were killed earlier this year when they got into a beef with the neighbor across the street over snow removal.

Man Shoots Couple, Then Himself, After Snow-Shoveling Dispute

Whole lotta stoopit there, over something that would be melted away and gone in a few days anyway...

 

[WillametteWill]

Look, yet another "self defense" train wreck.

We can discuss Stand your Ground, Castle Doctrine, curtilage, duty to retreat, rifles vs pistols, warning shots, slings, etc. but it would behoove everyone to remember:
A) A firearm is a tool of last resort, don't introduce one into a situation unless it is...the last resort
B) Don't be the initial aggressor or escalate a non-deadly threat to a deadly threat
C) Learn that avoidance is not cowardice, keep your testosterone in check
D) If you end up in a discussion about the nuances of your self defense shooting that I started this post with, possibly you had a legitimate DGU, but more than likely A, B & C were a major fail and people on firearms forums will be hacking away on their keyboards while you are either in jail or putting together the $500,000 for your defense. (Myself included!)

This is absolutely not directed at anyone here as you all know I'm always up for these discussions and enjoy / learn from other's perspectives. I have seen the criminal element around my world change to know that it is getting harder to avoid situations / confrontations when you are trying your best. I'm working to train folks on avoidance, not do go looking for trouble. I don't know if 20 months of the woohoo flu is making folks crazy or what.

As for child custody issues, it usually goes bad when multiple family members show up. Men feel they have to puff out their chests (like literally happened here), other family members stir the pot, it's a mess. Been on over 100 in the field where kids are just used a pawns to hurt the former spouse. I've also watched another 100+ in the parking lots of police stations where it looks like a hostage exchange in Brazil. White SUV pulls up, black SUV pulls up 100 feet away. One parent carries the car seat to the half way point and then little Jonny walks from one car to another. I get it, sometimes one of the parents is pure evil. I have deep empathy for those that have been there.

 

[Longwalkhome]

SO - do YOU have personal experience with child custody ? such as with your own?

I am going to take a guess and say no based on your above questions.

ANY boyfriend of a divorced mother of a child is stark raving nuts if he in ANY way gets involved between the father and the mother and will get little sympathy in court. Especially when he shot a father who was expressing what could be considered a 'common' emotion of a father in a child custody situation - especially when a 'boyfriend' sticks his nose in it. Boyfriends of a mother are the lowest common denominator and if they have chit for brains know to stay out of a domestic issue.

I suspect 'smaller man' has no personal experience with child custody issues either or he would have known better and 'backed off'.


I'll agree with this part unequivocally. Father should have left no doubt - but he was not a threat to the homeowner/renter or whoever he was. 'Smaller man' should have BACKED OFF unless/until 'bigger guy' actually presented a threat.

No personal experience because I never got a divorce. I have two fairly close brothers that went through the trauma, heck one went through it twice. I saw it first hand but I am no experienced expert on divorce behavior norms. Emotions can leave a deadly trail as we saw in the video.

If it goes to trial it will be hard to find folks who haven't been divorced and have a real bias.

 

[Tony617]

 

[American123]

I only read the article, didn't watch any videos, but it seems like the only person to introduce violence into the situation is the guy who went into the house to get the gun. He tried to use it as an intimidation tool, that didn't work, so he ultimately upped the ante.

That situation sounded like a hot mess all the way around. Seems like the best lesson to be learned from it is to be a lot more careful about who you have kids with.

 

[red442joe]

Did or did not the molester have a gun in his right hand? Pictures looked like he did.

I don't think you know all the players and their positions....

Joe

 

[bbbass]

Dudes life was not threatened, he then went and got a rifle, returned outside and started blasting.

not enough info to judge this, but I have 2 questions... does the states even have a written castle law and does it allow for curtalage (outside the home walls) and was the father allowed to be there by arraingement with his ex to pick up his kid at that time?

Sooooo, much stupid on display on both sides. My ex is all the way at the top of the CRAZY VS HOT scale, she was both, intensely so. And yes, she prevented my kids from catching a plane to see me for a planned visit, tickets that I paid for, while my new wife and I waited at the Boise airport 3hrs from our home... it was infuriating!!!

Not sure what they call the Texas law, but you are allowed to shoot to protect property at your home. In fact, you can shoot to protect your neighbor's property. So gun rights are a pretty big deal there. Remember this case from 2015 where a man did just that, while on the phone with 911 saying he was going to shoot: https://www.foxnews.com/story/texas-man-cleared-of-shooting-suspected-burglars-next-door

ASP says ego matches/challenges are the cause of many problems/deaths. FWIW, I'm on a Texas gun forum and EVERYTHING is big in Texas, including egos, and I often find that natives are a very aggressive sort, as seen in this case. People there often just don't back down no matter what. It's a sort of bravado/macho. In this case, he got bit.

It sure looked like an intentional homicide to me; an argument that escalated to violence/murder. But under Texas law, a person can defend his property with deadly force. On the other hand, the guy WAS supposed to be there to pick up his kids; he had a legal right to be there; until he was told to leave; then he was trespassing. I wouldn't kill anyone over simple trespassing, even after verbal threats, but it MAY be legal in Texas, IDK.

 

[Bon Sauvage]

Well......it looks to me like the one gentleman grabbed the carbine with at least his right hand just prior to getting aerated. Many might consider that the shooter then shot in self defense.

 

[Member 53328]

Well......it looks to me like the one gentleman grabbed the carbine with at least his right hand just prior to getting aerated. Many might consider that the shooter then shot in self defense.

Except for the fact he shot a round at the victims foot before he attempted to grab the rifle.