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EPA sets a minumum gas station purchace. You must buy at least four gallons.

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Bigfoot, Sep 19, 2012.

  1. Bigfoot

    Bigfoot Clack Co. OR Well-Known Member

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    Government sees a problem that doesn't really exist (oil shortage) so it creates a solution (gasohol). The solution damages engines so government recognizes that problem and mandates a solution, FORCING us to buy at least four gallons at a time from many gas stations to dilute the harmful ethanol.

    Ride a motorcycle or want to fill up a gas can? Too bad. Either find a station that has dedicated nozzles for E10 and E15 or....I don't know...give away the balance of your gas purchase to the next guy in line?

    Yep, mandates enacted by faceless, unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats.

    Anybody see a problem here with the rapidly increasing size and power of government?

    Since when is government able to force us to buy something we don't want or need? Oh yeah, thanks Justice Roberts. Shouldn't the EPA call it a tax though so it's legal?

     
  2. charros93

    charros93 Puget Sound Active Member

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    I ride a harley with a 3 gallon tank, and usually fill it when its 1/3 full. I buy 4 gallons and use 2 so what happens to the other 2? Maybe I could trade it for a Red Bull and a dirty magazine...
     
  3. JGRuby

    JGRuby Portland Oregon New Member

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    I dont believe that this is for real.

    James Ruby
     
  4. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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    I certainly do. Wouldn't put a thing past this bloated, corrupt government.
     
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  5. xd45acp

    xd45acp molalla Active Member

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    Do a search for EPA ethanol mandate
     
  6. Bigfoot

    Bigfoot Clack Co. OR Well-Known Member

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    E15 Retailer Handbook. It's on page 43-44 in the addendum.
    file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/d7f6b590dcc0254053_nam62w7f1.pdf

    Plus the gov is mandating that thousands of stations install blender pumps. Expect gas prices to rise.

    And if you want more here's pages and pages of regs on how to keep E15 and E10 separate. Lots of labeling, inspection and paperwork for the stations and suppliers.

    E15 MISFUELING MITIGATION PLAN
    file:///C:/Users/Owner/AppData/Local/Temp/rfa-model-e15-misfueling-mitigation-plan.pdf
     
  7. Mark W.

    Mark W. Silverton, OR Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    I have never seen E15 for sale where have you? the fuel around here is all E10 least the regular grade crap is.

    And Gasohol has been around since at least 1980 cause I managed service stations for McCall Oil Co in the Portland Gresham area that sold it as GASAHOL. it was a 10% blend with Premium level octane. Made my little Opal Station wagon run like a raped ape.
     
  8. Dunerunner

    Dunerunner You'll Never Know Well-Known Member

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    Just pay a little extra and find a station that sells Clear or Boat gas.
     
  9. JGRuby

    JGRuby Portland Oregon New Member

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    Somebody posts something and all of a sudden it must be gospel. I still dont believe until I get the details from a trusted source.

    James Ruby
     
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  10. AMT

    AMT Vancouver, WA. Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    It has to be true, it's posted on the internet..... :p
     
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  11. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    Why not? It's a fairly simple concept.
    Gasoline with alcohol content greater than 10% isn't recommended for vehicles built prior to model year 2001, or heavy trucks, boats or motorcycles.
    It is known to damage fuel systems, and emission control/vapor recovery systems in these older cars, and damage engines tuned differently for specific duty

    It causes engines designed to run under heavier-than-standard loads (med. duty and heavier trucks) to run lean, and this can cause burned valves, pistons etc.

    In addition, motorcycles and boats have no vapor recovery system on their fuel systems, and it is far from practical to design/install one. The greater alcohol content in e15 causes the blend to have a higher Reid Vapor Pressure or RVP (higher evap rate) than e10 or straight gas. So they don't want it in bikes and/or boats. (bad for the ozone layer)

    Because of this, if a gas station sells both e10 and e15 from a pump with a single hose, the fuel remaining in the hose after pumping e15 contains enough alcohol to contaminate small quantities of e10, and raise the alcohol content to levels that would damage a vehicle not designed to operate on it, or cause greater air pollution. (Wasn't "air pollution" why we started down this road in the first place?)
    Thus the need to require a greater volume purchase to mitigate the overall alcohol content in the quantity purchased.

    Also, if one insists on purchasing e15 and will not accept e10, they must buy enough to overcome the hose's residual volume of e10, and raise the overall alcohol percentage back up to closer to 15%.

    So, ostensibly, it's to protect the consumer.
    Aren't government rules always implemented to "protect" someone?

    The EPA also believes that because e15 is expected to be cheaper (HAHAHA) than e10, there may incentive on the part of some to attempt to run e15 in these vehicles, or for gas stations to carry it so they can offer a cheaper fuel.
    So, as long as the station doesn't stock e15 in pursuit of greater sales/cheaper prices, they shouldn't have to implement the 4 gallon requirement.
    Or, they must install a dedicated e15 pump and hose.
    Or, enforce the 4 gallon rule with their e10 customers.
    Or, risk liability for any e15 related damages.

    And that means the old adage, "Be careful what you wish for" rears it's ugly head.
    The nanny state is alive, well, and flourishing under our current leadership.
     
  12. JGRuby

    JGRuby Portland Oregon New Member

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    Jamie - everything you said makes sense to me - thank you. I think you would agree that there is a big difference however between something that makes sense and it actually being a law. Maybe a better way of asking this is - is this an actual federal law and if so does anyone know the number?

    James Ruby
     
  13. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    They have no choice JG.
    It's not a law, in the strictest of terms, it's an administrative rule, which carries the same weight in terms of licensing, permitting, compliance etc.
    Want to sell fuel? You must comply with EPA rules or face fines, lose your fuel retailer's permit etc.
    IOW, an out-of-compliance seller won't be prosecuted, just face bureaucratic harassment and fines from a federal agency for non-compliance.
    If they want to get out from under them, they'll have to petition the government to sue one of it's agencies, and file said suit if successful.
    Great way to do business eh?

    It also exonerates the EPA from lawsuits etc. when someone's car, bike, equipment etc. gets damaged by e15.

    They are discussing a waiver system for bikes, due to their small tanks, that can't hold 4 gallons. But that won't prevent the damage from gas that has higher than 10% alcohol content.
    To avoid the damage, the biker will have to go elsewhere for fuel, or wait until someone buys 4 gallons or more of e10, and purges the e15 from the hose.

    Sorry JG, no due process involved, just an out-of-control government flexing it's regulatory muscles.

    EPA's four-gallon minimum mandate - The Hill's Congress Blog
     
  14. Redcap

    Redcap Lewis County, WA Well-Known Member

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  15. Ligito

    Ligito Oregon Active Member

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    + another 1
     
  16. Ghost_2.0

    Ghost_2.0 Oregon Member

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    My motorcycle sure doesn't hold 4 gallons..
     
  17. Swedish K

    Swedish K SW Washington Moderator Staff Member

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    so to "protect" consumers they make them buy the entire 4 gallons of higher ethanol content fuel in the small tank of a motorcycle... makes sense - if you are going to risk it risk big...
     
  18. JGRuby

    JGRuby Portland Oregon New Member

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    Thanks for the clarification and details. Wonder when we will actually start seeing this take place here in Portland.

    James Ruby
     
  19. Jamie6.5

    Jamie6.5 Western OR Well-Known Member

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    No, the opposite.
    As I understand it, they won't make anyone buy the 4 gallon minimum of e15, or e10 in a vehicle new enough.
    And they are working on a waiver for motorcyclists that don't want to buy the whole 4 gallons of e10.

    But if the hose is full of e15, and you buy e10 for your bike from it, you will end up with more alcohol than e10, but less that e15, and if your bike is damaged because of it, then that's too bad. You have no legal recourse.
    You get to pay for repairs, because YOU "misfueled" your bike.

    The EPA is essentially telling you "Tough luck!"
     
  20. Blitzkrieg

    Blitzkrieg WA Well-Known Member

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    My motorcycle solution (on/off road biker here) would be to carry a few of those nifty French 4 liter steel gas cans that CTD sells. I can always use the fuel for chainsaws and lawnmowers and such. Be smarter than them, people, it's not difficult ;) Screw the EPA