Engraving, I need the facts

rctimmy · Jul 13, 2015

So much disagreement about engraving out there so I want to ask a very specific question.

Has anyone actually, physically gotten ATF approval without engraving if they are simply making an SBR from an existing serial numbered non NFA rifle or pistol?

This is my first round with ATF and the Internet is flooded with negativity and argument about wether or not you need to engrave a receiver that already has a serial number and manufacturer name on it.

Thank you in advance to anyone who responds with clear and precise direction. Please respond privately to limit the public conversation if you would like, I don't want to hear from anyone who has not gone through the process completely. Thanks.

jbett98 · Jul 13, 2015

Unless the firearm was already made into an SBR, and you're just transferring the tax stamp over to your name/trust, you will be required to file a form 1 with the ATF as the builder, and that requires the receiver to be engraved with your name/trust and location as the entity that built the SBR.

OREGON FALER · Jul 14, 2015

I have received 2 tax paid stamps on a form 1 ( 1 paper filed, 1 efiled). I will have you know that the engraving operation is completely separate from what the ATF does out east. When I say that, I mean they don't know if you've engraved or not, engraving has no bearing on the approval process.
This is what I have done,
1) submit forms to the ATF
2) engrave Item. I engraved after I submitted the forms but, before approval.
3) Item comes back from engraver and I put all the parts back on it and attach it to a 16" or greater barrel.
4) approved form comes back, assemble the SBR on a short barrel.

I take the position that I as a maker of a title 2 firearm need to engrave my name or entity, city & state.
There is no burden put upon you or I as the maker to show the ATF through pictures that we have indeed done the engraving. There is no stated time frame this engraving must be done in.
Nate

Stomper · Jul 14, 2015

^^^This^^^

I never had to engrave my SBR'd AK before it was approved, but if you entered the engraving info in the box on the form, it'd behoove you to follow through on it.

rctimmy · Jul 14, 2015

Thanks guys for some answers. I can't believe that even the ATF won't comment on it. It's a conspiracy, they make the process difficult in hopes that people will just give up...

jbett98 · Jul 14, 2015

I received a lot of good advice from the staff at Curt's Discount Shooters Supply.
Curt's daughter (Hilary) is especially good with answering questions and helping fill out the ATF forms.
It is a little intimidating when you submit your first Form 1.

I made a mistake on my Form 1 regarding the overall length of the SBR.
I stated on the Form 1 application that the measured overall length was with the adjustable stock in the shortest closed position. Sounds logical doesn't it.
When I should have measured it with the stock fully extended.

OREGON FALER · Jul 14, 2015

There's lots of resources out there, AR-15.com has been super helpful for me. There's just too many guys on there that know what the score is.

JedB · Jul 15, 2015

jbett98 said:
I received a lot of good advice from the staff at Curt's Discount Shooters Supply.
Curt's daughter (Hilary) is especially good with answering questions and helping fill out the ATF forms.
It is a little intimidating when you submit your first Form 1.

I made a mistake on my Form 1 regarding the overall length of the SBR.
I stated on the Form 1 application that the measured overall length was with the adjustable stock in the shortest closed position. Sounds logical doesn't it.
When I should have measured it with the stock fully extended.

I agree that Hillary is a valuable resource for our community and for Curt's.

I'm "in process" right now with a normal, Palmetto State Armory lower that I bought. It has its own serial number.
Filled out form 1 paperwork.
Added name of trust to document.
I have not engraved it yet.
Once approval is received, before I build *anything* I'm going to go get it engraved at Bye Engraving http://byeengraving.com/ as they have been recommended by multiple people on this board.

Only after I get it engraved will I build it up.

telero · Jul 24, 2015

rctimmy said:
Has anyone actually, physically gotten ATF approval without engraving if they are simply making an SBR from an existing serial numbered non NFA rifle or pistol?

What do you mean by actual physical approval? Do you mean the approved Form 1? I'm going to assume that you mean the Form 1 since that's the only thing the ATF sends you. Which isn't even physical if you e-file.

Assuming you mean the Form 1, then yes, many people have received an approved Form 1 without having engraved the receiver of the NFA item they are making from an existing non-NFA firearm. That doesn't mean you don't have to engrave it.

Remember, a Form 1 is only an application to Register and Make the NFA firearm. Once that application is approved the item will be registered in the NFA database but has not been made until you assemble it. Up until you assemble it you can actually request a refund of your money, and essentially unregister your application. Many people also engrave their exisiting fiream prior to or during the application process. Engraving alone does not make an NFA firearm.

The ATF does not actively follow up to verify you properly made the firearm, including the required engraving. If you were to find yourself in a situation where an ATF agent does want to inspect your NFA firearm, you will want it to be properly made, including the engraving. If you've got to the point that an ATF agent wants to inspect your NFA firearm, whether or not it is engraved properly is likely the least of your worries.

rctimmy said:
This is my first round with ATF and the Internet is flooded with negativity and argument about wether or not you need to engrave a receiver that already has a serial number and manufacturer name on it.

There are some arguments about whether or not you need to engrave your NFA item with your maker information if you are making an NFA firearm from an existing non-NFA firearm. Any argument that says you do not need to engrave your information is WRONG.

Most people don't seem to understand the difference between licensed manufacturers (and importers) and unlicensed makers. Hopefully the following will help clear this up. I'll be referencing the Code of Federal Regulations (CFRs) for the following discussion. Specifically starting with 27 CFR Chapter II, Subchapter B - Firearms and Ammunition

The CFR above is broken down further into different parts, including Part 448 - Commerce in Firearms and Ammunition, and Part 449 - Machine guns, destructive devices, and certain other firearms. Because of the definitions in each section, Part 448 includes all firearms (including NFA firearms), but only in terms of commerce. The definitions in Part 449 only include NFA firearms.

In Part 448 of the above CFR (Part F, section 478.92), there are marking requirements for firearms as defined in section 448. Those requirements start as:

"You, as a licensed manufacturer or licensed importer of firearms, must legibly identify each firearm manufactured or imported as follows"

This limits the engraving requirements to licensed manufacturers for all firearms defined in that section, including NFA firearms. This is why you as an unlicensed maker are not required to engrave any markings on a firearm you make.

Unfortunately that seems to be where some people stop reading. If you continue on to Part 449 of the CFR listed above (Part G, section 479.102), the marking requirements are:

"You, as a manufacturer, importer, or maker of a firearm, must legibly identify the firearm as follows"

Those marking requirements apply to the manufacturer (licensed) and MAKER (unlicensed) of firearms that are defined in that section, which are the NFA firearms.

Some people will argue that because a licensed manufacturer engraved their information on a non-NFA firearm as required by Part 448, the unlicensed maker information does not need to be engraved. This is incorrect because as an unlicensed maker your are required under Part 449 to engrave your name and where the firearm was made. Changing a non-NFA firearm that was manufactured by a licensee and engraved according to the requirements of Part 448, or changing a non-NFA firearm that was made by a non-licensee and not engraved previously into an NFA firearm defined in Part 449 is actually creating a different firearm that must be identified as required in Part 449.

To further establish that any NFA firearm being created via a Form 1 is actually making an NFA firearm that would need to follow the marking rules in Part 449, notice the title of the Form 1 (5320.1) - Application to MAKE and Register a Firearm.

rctimmy · Jul 24, 2015

Telero, great information. Thank you, this is exactly the information I was looking for. It is pretty intimidating going though the process the first time.

telero · Jul 24, 2015

Sorry it was such a long post, I tried to keep it as brief as possible while having it still make sense. Everyone was a newb once. By your fifth or sixth stamp you'll be a pro.