Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

End of posting guns for sale on internet sites?

Discussion in 'Legal & Political Archive' started by Medic!, Jan 5, 2016.

  1. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    3,034
    Likes Received:
    6,585
    How do you see this?

    '' Those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the internet or other technologies must obtain a license,''

    Like a brick and mortar store!

    So using this and other sites to post adds in now illegal?

    I took this ''New actions list'' from another post.
    If it's legitimate. And I read this in context. It looks like one gun sale constitutes being in the business of dealing firearms.

    Glad I like my guns. Looks like I can't sell them. :s0099: I can't advertise any longer.
    And he's adding hundreds of new agents to enforce these new controls.


    And this was taken from the White house fact sheet.
    • Clarify that it doesn’t matter where you conduct your business—from a store, at gun shows, or over the Internet: If you’re in the business of selling firearms, you must get a license and conduct background checks. Background checks have been shown to keep guns out of the wrong hands, but too many gun sales—particularly online and at gun shows—occur without basic background checks. Today, the Administration took action to ensure that anyone who is “engaged in the business” of selling firearms is licensed and conducts background checks on their customers. Consistent with court rulings on this issue, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has clarified the following principles:
      • A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. For example, a person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions at gun shows or through the Internet. Those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the Internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick-and-mortar store.
      • Quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators. There is no specific threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensure requirement. But it is important to note that even a few transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient to establish that a person is “engaged in the business.” For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present.
      • There are criminal penalties for failing to comply with these requirements. A person who willfully engages in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution and can be sentenced up to five years in prison and fined up to $250,000. Dealers are also subject to penalties for failing to conduct background checks before completing a sale.


    CX6c6IhW8AAmrT8.jpg

    CX6c6IhW8AAmrT8.jpg
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
    WAYNO likes this.
  2. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    8,469
    Likes Received:
    19,442
    The gray area here is the definition of "in the business". How many guns is that? DO you have to make a profit? The ATF rules already exclude private sellers who sell maybe several times a year and aren't in it to make a profit. As far as I know, that hasn't changed. But I wouldn't be surprised to see that particular rule 'tweaked' at some point in the future.

    My argument would be, if they want to do that, then the ATF needs to open up the 01 FFL to private sellers and not just to businesses. I don't expect that is going to happen, but it would have to be the logical response if they classify private sellers as "in the business".
     
    CHLChris and Medic! like this.
  3. RicInOR

    RicInOR Washington County Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    3,895
    Likes Received:
    4,678
  4. WAYNO

    WAYNO Oregon City Gold Supporter Gold Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Still not clear. Specifically it says even one gun sold over the internet makes you a seller. But if you're shipping it to a receiving FFL, how or why could that require the seller to be a dealer? Once the receiving FFL does the transfer, the background check will be done on the buyer.

    I am disgusted.

    WAYNO.
     
    nammac, aljames and etrain16 like this.
  5. No_Regerts

    No_Regerts United States Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,405
    Likes Received:
    2,843
    Judging by what some people ask on the classifieds, there is some major hope of making a profit....
     
    optrixs and Medic! like this.
  6. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    3,034
    Likes Received:
    6,585
    So let's say one of the hundreds of new agents mining the internet, accuses you of being a dealer?

    Would you be considered guilty if you made a profit? Or are you guilty just for providing a gun for sale?

    Keep in mind. They have lawyers paid for buy your endless tax money. And they can take away years of your life. And all your money.

    That's even if you win your case!

    But the Obama gang wouldn't do that. They wouldn't demonize you and make an example of you. Would they? :rolleyes:

    Scary crap. :s0002:
     
    Raidingtime, Logan Wilson and Joe13 like this.
  7. WasrNwarpaint

    WasrNwarpaint Portland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    592
    Likes Received:
    1,030
    one used gun sold "does make you a seller" but does NOT make you "in the business of selling guns" no more so than you selling your used car without a dealers license!.SELLING A USED CAR DOES NOT MAKE YOU A CAR DEALER
    otherwise one could say that a city business license as well as any state resale tax collecting permits that may or may not be required in your sate will be a necessity for the sale of ANY SINGLE ITEM
    unless obama wants to change the definition of "in the business"

    https://www.atf.gov/file/100871/download
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
    tiggers97 and Joe13 like this.
  8. CHLChris

    CHLChris Portland Metro East Love me some guns! Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    1,816
    Likes Received:
    1,328
    I don't know how the ATF could make getting an FFL so tough for normal people, and then require it on the other hand.

    As long as every person-of-the-gun VOTES this November, this unconstitutional crap only lasts for one more year!
     
    WAYNO and Joe13 like this.
  9. scrandall01215

    scrandall01215 Washougal,WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    590
    Likes Received:
    514
    I'm so glad I only BUY guns!!!:s0006::s0019::s0014::s0015::s0019::s0024::s0121:
    Stacy
     
    Raidingtime, tdocz, edslhead and 3 others like this.
  10. WAYNO

    WAYNO Oregon City Gold Supporter Gold Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    856
    Likes Received:
    1,048


    ...For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present.

    WAYNO.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
    Buttercup, Medic! and Joe13 like this.
  11. Dyjital

    Dyjital Albany, Ore Flavorite Member Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    4,867
    Likes Received:
    5,760
    Horse bubblegum and screw them.
     
    Raidingtime, misterarman, RLS and 2 others like this.
  12. Joe13

    Joe13 NW of Vancouver Opinionated & Blunt Bronze Supporter 2015 Volunteer 2016 Volunteer

    Messages:
    6,696
    Likes Received:
    10,843

    It's not a business for me it's a hobbie...

    If I'm forced to buy a license then they will be forced to give me a huge tax break for the space in my home that I store them and a tax break for all the money I loose when I sell stuff off.

    Crap will backfire on them IMO.

    EDIT: Also I will be adding my car mileage and gas to my deductions as well as any time spent on the Internet "researching" guns. As well as my internet bills for the year so that I can "do business". Maybe write off my phones and computers while I'm at it.


    Screw them.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
  13. albin25

    albin25 Lewiston Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,216
    Likes Received:
    4,044
    99% of what King Hussein said is already on the books and HE knows it.
    He was simply taking credit for laws, regs, rules and policies that are already in effect and will have zero effect on how things are currently done.

    The main item that can cause concern is the usual "we're adding x number of enforcers" B.S. (in this case 200 more ATF agents) that will actually be Democrat controlled, political, fully indoctrinated, Anti-gun types.
     
  14. DeanfromOregon

    DeanfromOregon Wilsonville Amateur Ascended Master Platinum Supporter

    Messages:
    764
    Likes Received:
    857
    Bingo.
     
    albin25 and Joe13 like this.
  15. NWGlockgal

    NWGlockgal Oregon Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,367
    Likes Received:
    1,774
    The question is, what does "utilize" mean? If I am a private seller, I might "Utilize" the
    internet to list a firearm and to arrange to meet a buyer at a LGS. However, I am NOT selling the gun on the internet. That's being done in person. To me, listing and selling are two very different things.
     
    CHLChris, Joe13, albin25 and 2 others like this.
  16. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    3,034
    Likes Received:
    6,585

    They know you can't just get a license.
    Few would qualify. And they hold the approval. So this is not an option and they know that.

    But to most folk's this sounds reasonable. So they shrug there shoulders.

    I tell you. We have been ham strung!
    How bad? That's up to them. And I don't like the Idea of Obama's people deciding that.
    I can already see 2/3ds of the tables at gun shows going away?[Well not the jerky];)

    We can be monitored down to the single sale on the internet, with enough agents.
    And whatever way the existing laws have been enforced? That may not be the way it's ordered to be done from this time forward. Or retroactively if laws were already on the books?

    It's up to the administration to decide which laws to enforce. And on what grounds.

    I think what we just saw was a shot accost the bow!
    And when a person set on hurting you signals his intensions. You should look very hard at just how they can! ;)
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
    scrandall01215, albin25 and WAYNO like this.
  17. Charliehorse

    Charliehorse Cascade Mts - State of Jefferson USA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    418
    Likes Received:
    938
    Let's try again (why does the app sometimes blow smilies up to giant??? Then you can't delete them, have to delete whole post...)

    Hmm... what's the depreciation schedule for firearms? Or can they be Sec 179 deduction?
     
  18. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    8,469
    Likes Received:
    19,442
    For now...all the more reason that pro-gun folks, no matter what political affiliation, get out this year and vote pro-gun. Put the ATF back under pro-gun control for a few years and clean things up a bit, start by tossing the current leader.
     
  19. jbett98

    jbett98 NW Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    6,446
    Likes Received:
    7,646
    It's one small step for Obama and it will be one giant leap for Hillary in the effort to disarm honest Americans when she buys her way into the oval office.
     
    scrandall01215 and WAYNO like this.
  20. Medic!

    Medic! What just happened? Has eagle eyes. But cant remember what he saw. Bronze Supporter

    Messages:
    3,034
    Likes Received:
    6,585
    I'm just playing Devils advocate here. So don't hate me.

    You can decide if your putting yourself in a position to get hurt or not?

    • Those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the Internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick-and-mortar store.

    So you sold a gun through the internet? Big deal.
    You made sure the guy had a background check through a local FFL!

    Right?

    Well never mind who dose the background check.

    Did you facilitate the sale of a gun using the internet?
    Do you have a license?
    When they ask you this in court. What's that lump in your throat gona feel like?

    • There are criminal penalties for failing to comply with these requirements. A person who willfully engages in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution and can be sentenced up to five years in prison and fined up to $250,000.


    I'm not saying they will come after you.
    But I'm afraid they could try to make a case out of it.

    Remember. They are evil, vindictive and petty!:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2016
    MilitantBEEMER and WAYNO like this.