Echo Trigger - Full Autoishy Goodnes?

[U8395279]

I like the idea of the double tap. The military has three round burst for a reason. I taught myself years ago to double tap so fast t sounds like full auto. So one squeeze and release doubles your chance of hitting the target.

But can you still switch this trigger to standard semiauto mode, with it installed? That point remains unclear to me.

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[jordanvraptor]

You can move the selector to semi if you want to resume normal trigger ops while holding back the trigger.

 

[The Heretic]

It is obvious to me that:

A rifle with this trigger group installed and functioning as shown in the video, would make that rifle a "machine gun" in Oregon state due to this definition:

ORS 166.210 - Definitions - 2013 Oregon Revised Statutes (http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.210)

and therefore illegal without a tax stamp due to:

ORS 166.410 - Manufacture, importation or sale of firearms - 2013 Oregon Revised Statutes (http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.410)

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However, here is where there seems to be a "loophole" in the Oregon law:

According to ORS 166.210 - Definitions - 2013 Oregon Revised Statutes (http://www.oregonlaws.org/ors/166.210), a firearm, unlike the BATF rulings, is not an auto-sear, and an auto-sear is not a firearm, and the Fostech trigger group is not an auto-sear by BATF definition/rulings.

So as long as you do not install the trigger into a firearm, you can possess the trigger without a tax stamp in Oregon. I kind of doubt that the BATF would even issue a tax stamp for this trigger group since they don't consider it to be an auto-sear, plus, even if they did, would they not consider it to be a post-86 machine gun and not allow it anyway?

So, if you want one, it isn't illegal to buy it - unless Oregon has some kind of precedence of "constructive possession" like the BATF does (I have not heard of this for Oregon law, but I could be wrong).

So unless they make a law specifically for the device itself, it seems to me that - repeating myself here - you can possess it, you just can't install it here in Oregon.

THoughts?

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I can't speak for WA state as I don't know the specific statute that would cover this.

Back a couple of decades ago, when people were just starting to play with these kinds of trigger mods, I saw a small device that you could put in your trigger and get the pull/release firing in a number of rifles - basically most trigger groups that have a secondary sear that holds the hammer back after a shot until the after the trigger is released, could be modded to do this with a simple snip of the right feeler gauge thickness.

I tried this with an AK at the time and after some experimenting I found what would work - just to see if it could be done. It was fun, and somewhat susceptible to hammer follow from time to time, but basically it was pretty close to full-auto sound and feel.

I did this once then never did it again. As I recall it was but a few months to a year at most, after these became available that first Calif. banned all such devices (I heard - I don't have a cite) and then Oregon modified their statutes and I think WA state did too (at the time I lived near Seattle).

Would I like one?

Sure - gotta get an AR first though (I think I still want an AR pistol). The cost is a lot less than a select-fire rifle with tax stamp, and it has the advantage of not being something that puts you on a BATF list of possessing an NFA item.

 

[The Heretic]

But can you still switch this trigger to standard semiauto mode, with it installed? That point remains unclear to me.

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It is always semi-auto mode. I would call the new mode bump fire mode or pull-release mode.

But yes, you can.

 

[45 for me]

Do cops get any kind of education about this stuff? Unless they were firearms enthusiasts as well (which many are) I wouldn't think they would have any idea what the correct law would be, or how it applied.

I would imagine that a contact would go down like this: Some neighbor or hiker hears what sounds like full auto fire, freaks out and calls the police. Do they even respond, as full auto is 1. legal with a tax stamp and 2. Easily duplicated with a fast trigger pull. If they did respond and accused you of having full auto, can you demonstrate it is not, or let them try it? I wonder how they would respond to the echo trigger. I bet if you had an ATF letter, they would be unaware of any Oregon differences

 

[Doc In UPlace]

Not in my experience; knowledge of law for most patrol officers centers around their most common infractions and crimes.
For example, very few line officers know that we are prohibited by law from telling them what we are doing as investigators. Once we've identified ourselves and advised them that we're working, that's as far as we can go without a court order.

 

[v0lcom13sn0w]

two or more shots by a single pressure of a trigger. this fires one shot with pressure and one shot without pressure. im no lawyer but sounds legit to me. id buy one if it were in the $250ish range.

 

[45 for me]

Update...

From Golden Earing's post in the Franklin armory BFS trigger thread regarding Oregon's definition of a machine gun and FA not selling in Oregon.

I emailed FA back in Dec, and spoke with them at SHOT, and received this reply from Jay Jacobson, President of FA:

Franklin Armory said:
Yes, that was the section that concerned us. It is possible to interpret it differently, but we haven't had the time to draft your AG a letter to get their interpretation. If they were to give us a green light, we would certainly be happy to ship them to Oregon as well. The interpretation would be that you truly only get one round per "press." However, the law does not address what happens when the trigger is released. To prove the point, a demonstration could show that one could pull the trigger, and then negate a release shot by simply modulating the selector back to traditional semiautomatic mode.

Basically, it's not that the State of Oregon has specifically banned the binary triggers, or made any comment on the them whatsoever. No one has yet spoken with the State of Oregon regarding this, but FA is erring on the side of caution.

What's new, is that if you look at the Franklin Armory store, they are no longer excluding sales to Oregon (although Washington is still excluded). Maybe they got their 'green light' to sell in Oregon?

(Binary Firing System - Gen3 product page)

Warning:

• Not for civilian sales in CA, CT, DC, IA, ND, NJ, NY, or WA.
• NEVER ALTER ANY INTERNAL COMPONENT OF THE BFS™.
• Improper installation, use, or tampering with the BFS™ will void the warranty and MAY LEAD TO UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE OF THE FIREARM THAT MAY LEAD TO INJURY OR EVEN DEATH.

Binary Firing System GenIII Trigger Pack

 

[rdb241]

Is somebody here going to buy a truck load and sell at the Portland gun show?

 

[45 for me]

Is somebody here going to buy a truck load and sell the at the Portland gun show?

Ha! I don't think getting them was the problem, I want to be able to use them hassle free. I am still more interested in the Fostech trigger than the Franklin Armory. Fostech now says they are shipping the trigger with a modified stripped bolt carrier to work with the trigger

Here is a very recent review from MAC

 

[The Heretic]

Ha! I don't think getting them was the problem, I want to be able to use them hassle free. I am still more interested in the Fostech trigger than the Franklin Armory. Fostech now says they are shipping the trigger with a modified stripped bolt carrier to work with the trigger

Here is a very recent review from MAC

A tad on the expensive side for what it is.

That said, I do like the double tap functionality. Almost full auto is fun, but the double tap would be the most useful.

Also, I will have to check out those lightweight uppers. I want an AR pistol/rifle with the lightest weight reliable components I can put together.

 

[Pandaz3]

I have all three of the Tac-Con models two of the enhanced mil spec, the 3MR and two of the 241 versions. The 3MR has the normal safe position, then it is in the single stage mode and then toward the rear is the auto-reset feature. the 241 has safe and then auto reset and then a two stage trigger. Somewhere near the third magazine it came to me.

I don't need another or I'd buy a 241

 

[2A2Dend]

A bump for WA state propoganda

 

[JustShoot]

being there is Carrier Mod. added for 100% reliability on the trigger group . ( wishful thinking ) .. but the new Fostech TG. is probably ??, is a NoGo with a AR Lower when hosted for the 9mm ?
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[IronMonster]

I want one, But I dont want to give them $200 to wait to get one. I would feel a whole lot better about $300 than $500 but I will probably still spend the $500 to have one.

 

[IronMonster]

And since moving to a free state I dont even have to sweat ordering one.

 

[Roger65]

What if they made it so it didn't reset automatically, without a "pull" forward? Make a the trigger look like a ring so one pressure back, boom, one press forward, boom.

 

[Howard1955]

Don't forget to clearly label any modifications done to your trigger.

 

[Pandaz3]

Well They had the Tac-Con 3MR on sale around Thanksgiving so I bought another one then, I'll make my own "Echo" with it

 

[coyote223]

Those wacky demokkkRats will make us all outlaws next year anyway. So what's one more BS charge,,,