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You somehow missed the citation I provided in that previous discussion, thus your entire post here is based on a deficiency. Here is the citation again, in case
anybody missed it :




STATE v. HARO | Leagle.com

In the case you cited the defendant was justified if he did not invite the intruder inside:
§ 164.215
Burglary in the second degree
(1) Except as otherwise provided in ORS 164.255 (Criminal trespass in the first degree), a person commits the crime of burglary in the second degree if the person enters or remains unlawfully in a building with intent to commit a crime therein.
(2) Burglary in the second degree is a Class C felony. [1971 c.743 §136; 1993 c.680 §24]

§ 164.225
Burglary in the first degree
(1) A person commits the crime of burglary in the first degree if the person violates ORS 164.215 (Burglary in the second degree) and the building is a dwelling, or if in effecting entry or while in a building or in immediate flight therefrom the person:
(a) Is armed with a burglary tool or theft device as defined in ORS 164.235 (Possession of a burglary tool or theft device) or a deadly weapon;
(b) Causes or attempts to cause physical injury to any person; or
(c) Uses or threatens to use a dangerous weapon.
(2) Burglary in the first degree is a Class A felony. [1971 c.743 §137; 2003 c.577 §10]

So assuming the defendant did not specifically invite the attacker inside (it would be hard to believe he did), ORassuming that he did tell him to leave at any point, the perp is committing either a Class A or a Class C felony.

Now, let's look at:
§ 161.209
Use of physical force in defense of a person
Except as provided in ORS 161.215 (Limitations on use of physical force in defense of a person) and 161.219 (Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person), a person is justified in using physical force upon another person for self-defense or to defend a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful physical force, and the person may use a degree of force which the person reasonably believes to be necessary for the purpose. [1971 c.743 §22]

And:
§ 161.219
Limitations on use of deadly physical force in defense of a person
Notwithstanding the provisions of ORS 161.209 (Use of physical force in defense of a person), a person is not justified in using deadly physical force upon another person unless the person reasonably believes that the other person is:

(1) Committing or attempting to commit a felony involving the use or threatened imminent use of physical force against a person; or
(2) Committing or attempting to commit a burglary in a dwelling [redundant in this case]; or
(3) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force against a person. [1971 c.743 §23]

So the perpetrator, by entering and remaining inside the premises has either committed a felony if not initially invited in, or has committed a felony by remaining in the premises, since he stated that his intent was to inflict bodily harm. The defendant has a right to avoid serious bodily injury in his own dwelling. Where is he to retreat to, especially with another defenseless person in the bathroom? He cannot predict what the perpetrator intends to do. Should he put up with being beaten just a little bit? How many of these situations have escalated from a fistfight to murder? I would not take the chance. If I were on the jury I would answer the ONLY legal question here in the affirmative, that yes, his use of deadly force in self-defense was REASONABLE.

Now, the case you found DID NOT address the reasonability of the defendant's actions. It addressed ONLY whether the lower court's instructions were accurate. They were ruled accurate, and I would agree with the appellate court's decision ON THAT QUESTION. But that has absolutely no bearing on whether or not the defendant's judgement of the situation was reasonable or not. That was up to the jury.

What is the distance rule for cops with an approaching subject who may or may not be armed, but refuses to stop? Is it 27 feet? Inside that boundary one cannot be assured of drawing a firearm and stopping the suspect before he closes the distance and is able to do damage with a blade. Could this perpetrator have reached a family member and done damage with a concealed blade of some sort, or blunt object? Even an object already present in the house, like a baseball bat in the kid's room? Would a cop have been justified in shooting the perpetrator? ABSOLUTELY! The homeowner had no way of knowing that the perpetrator was 16, that he was merely drunk, or even somehow impaired. The homeowner had no way of knowing whether the perpetrator was armed or not, and had no way of knowing his intent. His REASONABLE assumption was that the perpetrator illegally entered his house at 2 am, and illegally remained in it, with the intent to do some sort of crime. That he remained in the house when he knew it was occupied suggests that he doesn't care whether people are there because he intends to use force against them if confronted.

Here's a likely scenario:

1. The perpetrator goes on up the stairs without the homeowner stopping him.
2. A family member steps into the hallway to see what's going on.
3. The perpetrator pulls a knife and stabs the family member, or picks up a nearby object and hits them with it.

The homeowner has no way of knowing that this isn't going to happen. What are his logical choices if he wants to protect his family?

But wait. I know how you're going to answer this, because you're just trolling here. You want to get your jollies by having people send arguments your way, only to be repelled by your supposedly superior logic, reasoning, and moral values. Sorry to say, it's easy to refute any argument anyone makes if you can keep changing the scenario, as you have been doing. The question hinges on REASONABLENESS of the homeowner's actions, as has been demonstrated by your own legal analysis. Changing the characteristics of the perpetrator and the circumstances of the incident reflects directly on the reasonableness. You'll keep changing your story until the homeowner's assumption is unreasonable and then you'll crow about your "victory". Sorry to burst your bubble.
 
Taku,

Hence my reply to FD's post in two simple words: "non sequitur"


And for you low-information types out there reading this:

Non sequitur /nɒnˈsɛkwɪtər/ is Latin for "it does not follow." It is most often used as a noun to describe illogical, and/or irrelevant statements.



Hope that helps, no extra charge for the edumacashun!! ;)
 
Couple of thoughts based on the article

1. "“You could have...shot him in leg,”"
This is a typical response to having a family member shot. It is one of the unfortunate un-truths out there. (not really a lie, but it is wrong, and should not be propagated, but it is.)


2. A Minor is drunk. Clearly the parents, who I know are suffering, have some responsibility in this.
“He’s not much of a drinker, but he just wanted to try some that night,”
“He got pretty drunk,”


3. I am not a fan of the "castle doctrine" / SYG, but I do believe that if someone is in your home, you have the right to defend your family.
You have to be able to articulate why you needed to use physical force, or deadly force, to stop the other person(s). "Just because" isn't a reason.

4. I do expect a civil suit against the shooter. Just because.
There should also be one against the other family - where the teen went to party.
VA does not have castle doctrine (SYG)

One of those came from Sen. Richard Stuart, R–Stafford. He said his bill was essentially an effort to codify what is common law in Virginia already—that, if necessary, you may shoot to kill an intruder in your home who is threatening you.

“Virginia’s law is also pretty comprehensive and pretty good when it comes to the right to defend your home,” Stuart said in an interview last week. “You can use deadly force to defend your life.

“You cannot use deadly force to defend property. That’s worked pretty well from the criminal aspect.”

He wanted to codify the common law, Stuart said, particularly to provide a stronger legal defense in cases where a homeowner might shoot an intruder, and then find himself sued in civil court by that intruder’s family.

“We do have a duty to retreat in Virginia,” Stuart added. “If you are threatened, and you have the ability to retreat and remove yourself from the threat, then you’ve got a responsibility to do that before you shoot to kill.”
Last 2 quotes from this article:
<broken link removed>
 
thats a good question that reiterates my statement. I didn't give an answer, its not an easy one and I didnt judge the homeowner. I have no hindsight bias I just know it would be tough to live with the fact that I killed someone that turns out really didn't mean any harm.

The story is just one example of some possibilities how someone could enter a home without permission and without criminal intent, I will admit they are rare occurrences. Once again, I'm not judging because I agree that myself and my families safety comes first and you do what you gotta do under stress. But I don't shoot because I can shoot, I shoot because I have no choice. There is a difference. Mindset matters greatly.

In this particular case, we don't really know what his intentions were, do we? He is dead and he can't answer that question, can he? He might very well have been in the house with the intention of murdering everyone in the house. All we have is what his parents say, and what his buddy says. They are assuming they know what his intentions were, but they really don't know.

I agree I have no desire to kill anyone unless it is absolutely necessary. When a stranger breaks into my house through a window at 0230 hours and then fails to obey my commands; it is necessary. At that point I think all other choices are removed. I would have no problem living with myself in this situation. At least my family and myself would still have a chance at living.
 
Taku,

Hence my reply to FD's post in two simple words: "non sequitur"


And for you low-information types out there reading this:

Non sequitur /n&#594;n&#712;s&#603;kw&#618;t&#601;r/ is Latin for "it does not follow." It is most often used as a noun to describe illogical, and/or irrelevant statements.



Hope that helps, no extra charge for the edumacashun!! ;)

:s0155::s0155::s0155:
 
HUGE fan of castle doctrine here, HUGE. If they enter illegally the defender should not have to make fine distinctions as to intent
 
I remember the last time we "crossed swords" over the ORS covering use of deadly force concerning someone attempting to break into a DWELLING... You maybe, might, possibly have had some wiggle room in argument against the legality of popping someone outside the dwelling who was in the act of breaking in (I doubt a jury would convict), but when someone is FULL ON inside a dwelling deadly force is justified, and I don't see anything in the ORS that specifies qualifiers, other than (to paraphrase) "deadly force is justified against a person who is attempting to, or has broken into a DWELLING.
Non sequitur.

I don't think I debated anything about outside vs inside. You insisted, and still insist in the paragraph above that the statute regarding the use of deadly
force against an intruder can be read alone, and does in fact authorize use of deadly force against an intruder without "qualifiers". Well, since
you missed it the first time, I cited the case from nothing else but Court of Appeals which explains how that statute can not be read alone,
and that the intrusion alone doesn't authorize deadly force. Now the interesting part is, the wording of ORS might be confusing to some. I was
saying all alone that the statute complements statute on general use of force in self-defense. But that's the beauty of the court rulings,
they often explain the laws without cryptic legalese. So let's look at it again :

Defendant contends that the instruction was erroneous, because Short was committing a burglary in his dwelling and, under ORS 161.219, he had an unlimited right to use deadly force. Defendant misconstrues the self-defense statutes.

So it appears, the court did accept the claim that intrusion took place. What the court disagreed with, is that such intrusion
alone is an authorization of deadly force.

ORS 161.2091 and ORS 161.2192 refer to each other and must be read together.

That's what I said before.

And the most important conclusion of the court is this :

The legislature has not created an unlimited right to use deadly force against a burglar.

Reminds me the episode from Family Guy where the Founders were drafting 2A...


In the case you cited the defendant was justified if he did not invite the intruder inside:

Thank you for your attempt at legal analysis and some personal attacks. First of all, he "was justified" NOT, since
the court wrote :

Defendant appeals his conviction for assault in the first degree. ORS 163.185. He contends that the trial court's instruction on self-defense was erroneous. We affirm.

In other words, his conviction was upheld by the higher court.

Second, you are making a conditional assumption upon whether the invitation took place, or whether it was an intrusion.
The court did not reject the claim that an intrusion took place, because they went into the analysis of the
ORS 161.219 (deadly force in a dwelling) and wrote :

Nothing in the language of ORS 161.219 eliminates the general "necessity" requirement defined in ORS 161.209. Therefore, even when one or more of the threatening circumstances described in ORS 161.219 is present, the use of deadly force is justified only if it does not exceed the "degree of force which the person reasonably believes to be necessary" in the circumstances.

In the end, the guy was convicted for excessive use of force, and the conviction was upheld.

I hope the silent readers will appreciate the effort of both sides, and will be the ultimate judges of where the truth is.
And for now, here is some study to refute for fun :

Despite their important implications for interpersonal behaviors and relations, cognitive abilities have been largely ignored as explanations of prejudice. We proposed and tested mediation models in which lower cognitive ability predicts greater prejudice, an effect mediated through the endorsement of right-wing ideologies (social conservatism, right-wing authoritarianism) and low levels of contact with out-groups. In an analysis of two large-scale, nationally representative United Kingdom data sets (N = 15,874), we found that lower general intelligence (g) in childhood predicts greater racism in adulthood, and this effect was largely mediated via conservative ideology. A secondary analysis of a U.S. data set confirmed a predictive effect of poor abstract-reasoning skills on antihomosexual prejudice, a relation partially mediated by both authoritarianism and low levels of intergroup contact. All analyses controlled for education and socioeconomic status. Our results suggest that cognitive abilities play a critical, albeit underappreciated, role in prejudice. Consequently, we recommend a heightened focus on cognitive ability in research on prejudice and a better integration of cognitive ability into prejudice models.

Bright Minds and Dark Attitudes
 
In this particular case, we don't really know what his intentions were, do we? He is dead and he can't answer that question, can he? He might very well have been in the house with the intention of murdering everyone in the house. All we have is what his parents say, and what his buddy says. They are assuming they know what his intentions were, but they really don't know.

I agree I have no desire to kill anyone unless it is absolutely necessary. When a stranger breaks into my house through a window at 0230 hours and then fails to obey my commands; it is necessary. At that point I think all other choices are removed. I would have no problem living with myself in this situation. At least my family and myself would still have a chance at living.

I agree. Remember, I said I wasn't judging the homeowner just thinking of what can I do to access a situation like this one better.....

Turns out I didn't finish reading the article, I didn't see pg 2 until now. Even the boys father describes the scenario as the boy ignoring commands and continuing up the stairs (towards the homeowners sleeping girlfriend). This explains why he shot him in the back.... he even fired a warning shot first. By the fathers own account it seems to me the homeowner did access the situation as best as possible. I don't think the homeowner has any burden whatsoever to prove the boys intentions.
 

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