Docs fix for a boring Ruger Charger

[Quartermaster]

The BATF recently decided these arm braces can be shouldered. What you are seeing on the end is an arm brace.

ONLY SB tactical braces can be shouldered. They are the only brand listed in the decision.

 

[Quartermaster]

Personally I think this charger is cooler without looking mall ninja.

 

[Alexx1401]

ONLY SB tactical braces can be shouldered. They are the only brand listed in the decision.

There has been a couple more articles since then that they are all good to go

 

[Quartermaster]

There has been a couple more articles since then that they are all good to go

Source? From the ATF, not gun websites.

 

[Member 34319]

SO I know I am dense but how is this not a Handgun with a butt stock? IE an NFA item.

That's USA's gun laws for you.

If you really want your head to hurt, this is perfectly legal to own. Zero tax stamp required.

Black Aces Tactical

 

[etrain16]

Source? From the ATF, not gun websites.

I am not a lawyer, obviously, but I've read the ATF's letter several times now. And while, yes, the letter was in response to a specific challenge by one manufacturer. But if you read the letter, it addresses the challenge not based on one specific product, but on "stabilizing braces" in general. To whit, the subject of their letter:



And when you read the summary paragraph stating that "incidental or sporadic" use of "an arm-brace" - they use the generic term, they don't state the specific maker or model. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to read that their letter applies to any brace, not just the model of the manufacturer that challenged the ruling. I honestly would feel free to do it with any brace and think any attempt by the ATF to punish someone for it, could be legitimately challenged by by an attorney since the letter uses the term "arm-brace" and "stabilizing braces" generically, it does not make a provision for or give specific exclusion to, only one model.



But again, that's my interpretation. Based on my years of study of electrical and building codes, I have some experience reading government speak. Where they are not specific, they leave room for legitimate interpretation.

That said, I suspect there may be some request for additional clarification if their previous letter was not considered sufficient for most folks.

Oh, link to the full letter: https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/atf-letter-march-21-2017.pdf

 

[Alexx1401]

I am not a lawyer, obviously, but I've read the ATF's letter several times now. And while, yes, the letter was in response to a specific challenge by one manufacturer. But if you read the letter, it addresses the challenge not based on one specific product, but on "stabilizing braces" in general. To whit, the subject of their letter:

View attachment 365868

And when you read the summary paragraph stating that "incidental or sporadic" use of "an arm-brace" - they use the generic term, they don't state the specific maker or model. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to read that their letter applies to any brace, not just the model of the manufacturer that challenged the ruling. I honestly would feel free to do it with any brace and think any attempt by the ATF to punish someone for it, could be legitimately challenged by by an attorney since the letter uses the term "arm-brace" and "stabilizing braces" generically, it does not make a provision for or give specific exclusion to, only one model.

View attachment 365869

But again, that's my interpretation. Based on my years of study of electrical and building codes, I have some experience reading government speak. Where they are not specific, they leave room for legitimate interpretation.

That said, I suspect there may be some request for additional clarification if their previous letter was not considered sufficient for most folks.

Oh, link to the full letter: https://www.sigsauer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/atf-letter-march-21-2017.pdf

This is sadly going to be another one of those things that will only be a problem with some who will argue no matter what. It got off to an odd start with the one manufacturer "trying" to play off what has now become accepted as you see on some forums.
No lawyer here either and no stay at Holiday Inn last night. All I can say is what "I" will do as of now unless something else happens. If my Wife who has been asking about a Charger for a year or so comes home with one I suspect they will try it and soon not want it. I will then put on the short list one of the options to use a brace with it. I will NOT, and this may become important, not alter the arm brace in any way. ie not take the strap off it. It will be left set up so I can slap it on my arm. It will of course often find it's way to my shoulder and looks like it will be a lot of fun. There is now a crap load of these being used and made. If the BATF wants to try to make a case out of one of these we will hear about it very soon. They would of course look like fools. What others do is of course up to them. I have spent enough on my ASR's that I will not be doing this in the next weeks for sure. Especially now that I have to lay in some 10mm ammo and the components to roll them. Damn ammo is expensive.

 

[Alexx1401]

That's USA's gun laws for you.

If you really want your head to hurt, this is perfectly legal to own. Zero tax stamp required.

Black Aces Tactical

View attachment 365854

I saw one of those shortly after the "Shockwave" set up for the Cruiser came out. It did not take long for the work to get out that someone had found an unintended wording in the way the rules were written for those shotguns. I was showing it to some at work and laughing about it.

 

[etrain16]

This is sadly going to be another one of those things that will only be a problem with some who will argue no matter what. It got off to an odd start with the one manufacturer "trying" to play off what has now become accepted as you see on some forums.
No lawyer here either and no stay at Holiday Inn last night. All I can say is what "I" will do as of now unless something else happens. If my Wife who has been asking about a Charger for a year or so comes home with one I suspect they will try it and soon not want it. I will then put on the short list one of the options to use a brace with it. I will NOT, and this may become important, not alter the arm brace in any way. ie not take the strap off it. It will be left set up so I can slap it on my arm. It will of course often find it's way to my shoulder and looks like it will be a lot of fun. There is now a crap load of these being used and made. If the BATF wants to try to make a case out of one of these we will hear about it very soon. They would of course look like fools. What others do is of course up to them. I have spent enough on my ASR's that I will not be doing this in the next weeks for sure. Especially now that I have to lay in some 10mm ammo and the components to roll them. Damn ammo is expensive.

To my knowledge, in the 2 years since their last ruling, not a single person has been charged, much less arrested for shouldering a brace - and that's across our entire country. And I strongly suspect people continued shouldering braces many, many times since that ruling in January 2015. The ATF and local LE's simply don't have the resources to go after such foolish stuff as this. They have made it clear that this whole thing is based solely on a faulty interpretation by the ATF itself. What prosecutor would take up a case that is so shaky to begin with? As so many have noted, laws like SB941 in Oregon only work because the law-abiding follow them, perhaps out of fear, perhaps because they think it's the right thing to do. Take away compliance and the government could do virtually nothing about it - they don't have the resources or the drive to pursue it.

I am comfortable, in my reading of the letter, that I am just fine occasionally shouldering an unmodified/unaltered brace. I really don't believe there is anything to worry about. Some may not be convinced, and for them, I would suggest following their conscience.

Honestly until and unless the feds issue a clear definition that a brace is a stock and that attaching it to a pistol is creating an SBR, this will be a non-issue. And unless someone does something stupid with one of these, like some mass shooting, for example, I don't see that lawmakers even have such a move anywhere near their sights.

As for the 10mm, I'm curious to hear your report on it once you've gotten a chance to shoot it. 10mm is definitely on my want list for my ASR. Probably time to start building up some 10mm ammo in anticipation.

 

[Alexx1401]

To my knowledge, in the 2 years since their last ruling, not a single person has been charged, much less arrested for shouldering a brace - and that's across our entire country. And I strongly suspect people continued shouldering braces many, many times since that ruling in January 2015. The ATF and local LE's simply don't have the resources to go after such foolish stuff as this. They have made it clear that this whole thing is based solely on a faulty interpretation by the ATF itself. What prosecutor would take up a case that is so shaky to begin with? As so many have noted, laws like SB941 in Oregon only work because the law-abiding follow them, perhaps out of fear, perhaps because they think it's the right thing to do. Take away compliance and the government could do virtually nothing about it - they don't have the resources or the drive to pursue it.

I am comfortable, in my reading of the letter, that I am just fine occasionally shouldering an unmodified/unaltered brace. I really don't believe there is anything to worry about. Some may not be convinced, and for them, I would suggest following their conscience.

Honestly until and unless the feds issue a clear definition that a brace is a stock and that attaching it to a pistol is creating an SBR, this will be a non-issue. And unless someone does something stupid with one of these, like some mass shooting, for example, I don't see that lawmakers even have such a move anywhere near their sights.

As for the 10mm, I'm curious to hear your report on it once you've gotten a chance to shoot it. 10mm is definitely on my want list for my ASR. Probably time to start building up some 10mm ammo in anticipation.

This is how I see it too. Unless something happens, which we hear about if it does, I will be getting one sooner or later.
As for the 10mm ASR posted a pic of mine with the new hand guard just now. Ammo should be here today. So far best I have been able to find on ammo I trust is Graf. Bought some S&B from them. This will get me rolling more. Mags for these are still on sale at CDNN last I looked. When you get ready to buy it's worth getting the parts to just make the conversion a drop in. I know I will be glad I did when I start shooting and don't have to take the bolt apart to change out. Will follow up with a report as soon as I shoot the 10!!

 

[etrain16]

This is how I see it too. Unless something happens, which we hear about if it does, I will be getting one sooner or later.
As for the 10mm ASR posted a pic of mine with the new hand guard just now. Ammo should be here today. So far best I have been able to find on ammo I trust is Graf. Bought some S&B from them. This will get me rolling more. Mags for these are still on sale at CDNN last I looked. When you get ready to buy it's worth getting the parts to just make the conversion a drop in. I know I will be glad I did when I start shooting and don't have to take the bolt apart to change out. Will follow up with a report as soon as I shoot the 10!!

I've been using Armscor 10mm ammo for a while as it's been available locally for me. It's cycled/functioned 100% so far and the price seems a bit better than some other brands. I'm collecting brass as I go and will eventually plan to load for it - I've already got the .40/10mm Lee die set ready to go. As for mags, I've had them for the G20 for a while, so I'm good to go there.

 

[IronMonster]

When LE or the ATF shows up where I am shooting I suspect they will only be concerned with seeing the stamp for the can, if that... well and maybe getting a chance to pull the trigger a few times

 

[Alexx1401]

I've been using Armscor 10mm ammo for a while as it's been available locally for me. It's cycled/functioned 100% so far and the price seems a bit better than some other brands. I'm collecting brass as I go and will eventually plan to load for it - I've already got the .40/10mm Lee die set ready to go. As for mags, I've had them for the G20 for a while, so I'm good to go there.

They have that at my favorite place I just saw. Will toss a box on next order to try. Have to get a die set in this now and some bullets. May have to blow the dust off the press it's been a while since I bothered to use it.

 

[HB of CJ]

Just remember, the BATFE remains the only 800 pound Gorilla in the room playing musical chairs with you. That big Gorilla might decide to sit on you because he wants to and he likes you. Yikes! Just saying.

I got snap inspected way back in 1988 when the Class 3 license was had. When I told the guy he was supposed to give us Class 3 licenses holders 14 days written notice, (if memory serves) he just smiled.

"We can do your bound book and inventory inspection NOW or ALL OF US can come back later at 3 am". Memory serves that is what he said. He inspected them. A Saturday morning. Took about one hour.

The books and inventory were 100% clean. I did not offer him coffee. Still remember the ordeal today. My feeble failed point here is be very careful with those arm braces and handi guns. Just me. Respectfully.

All Oregon State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.

 

[IronMonster]

I follow the law and steer clear of any gray area, I have two stamped SBR's and a dozen other NFA items and you will not find any questionable things in my extensive collection, That said I am perfectly at ease holding this up to my cheek (to get proper eye relief it's really not touching your shoulder)in front of the ATF, God and anyone else who cares to gock my way. It's a pistol, it's designed as a pistol using pistol parts.

I also understand that government agency's, the ATF in particular, is not always known for its common sense and logic in dealing with such matters. After all the ATF is the agency that once determined a shoe string was in fact a machine gun.

I someday may SBR this little guy just because if it's as much fun as I hope it is it would be nice for it to have a stock rather than a brace. Till then I'm just gonna shoot it

 

[jsparks747]

That is SEXY!!!

 

[Alexx1401]

Just remember, the BATFE remains the only 800 pound Gorilla in the room playing musical chairs with you. That big Gorilla might decide to sit on you because he wants to and he likes you. Yikes! Just saying.

I got snap inspected way back in 1988 when the Class 3 license was had. When I told the guy he was supposed to give us Class 3 licenses holders 14 days written notice, (if memory serves) he just smiled.

"We can do your bound book and inventory inspection NOW or ALL OF US can come back later at 3 am". Memory serves that is what he said. He inspected them. A Saturday morning. Took about one hour.

The books and inventory were 100% clean. I did not offer him coffee. Still remember the ordeal today. My feeble failed point here is be very careful with those arm braces and handi guns. Just me. Respectfully.

All Oregon State, US Code Laws And NFA Rules Apply.

Yep, as I mentioned when I do it I will use it just the way they come. It will stay set up so I can use it on my arm as intended. No parts like the strap removed and nothing done to make it longer. Left as an arm brace.

 

[440volt]

This may be a noob type question, but doesn't adding a butt stock to a pistol make it an SBR in BATFE's eyes?

 

[IronMonster]

This may be a noob type question, but doesn't adding a butt stock to a pistol make it an SBR in BATFE's eyes?

It would, which is why I did not add a butt stock but rather a pistol brace

 

[MDH]

That's a mighty good looking Charger. I've had a lot of fun popping rats and squirrels out in central Oregon with a very similar set up sans brace. Enjoy!