Do you think the Portland Police should learn how to disarm persons without firearms.

[trainsktg]

I have to agree with Coctailer, Mountainbear and Tacticalinsertion7923. The officers have a matter of seconds to make these decisions...You #1 pull a knife on cops (dumb). #2 ignore commands to stand down and drop the knife (dumber) #3 you advance towards the officers with knife in hand (dumb enough to get shot)...#4 officers are going home to their families god willing.

I agree with LongWayFromHome, who agrees with Coctailer, Mountainbear and Tactical Insertion.

Keith

 

[mattg521]

I'd love it if we could give them the tools (ie shields and long batons, etc) and the training on how to use them.

I think the area that perhaps stands review and or differential training would be in how aggressively the officer presses the issue of contact versus holding for more resources. Please note: I am not judging what was done in this case. I wasn't there and I don't know the details...sounds like a justified shoot to me.

Most importantly if we can get our officers these tools and this training we still have to leave the decision making up to them. If they feel that they can handle the situation with less than lethal means and have adequate lethal force backup available then great. On the other hand I don't see how you can ask let alone mandate that police officers must attempt to disarm anyone ever.

 

[tkdguy]

This Viet Nam Vet was a poor sole who was homeless and very unfortunately was shot down on US streets. And, of course, with the public statements on the matter, absolutely nothing could have been done to avoid the situation. That seems doubtful. In retrospect, I would supect the shooters, would be thinking, they should have tried harder to do something else. As most of you know, homeless people are typically mentally and physically ill. Most are disabled and weak. Seems like a better approach could have been taken.

 

[python287]

This is all BS- none of you would even step up and take away that knife - so you can talk all you want - but since you've never done it - and probably couldn't do it- this big talk is all Bull.. Nothing is impossible for somebody who doesn't have to do it !!!

The bottom line is you don't bring a knife to a gun fight - and when the police tell you to stop doing what your doing - then you best stop !

 

[Modeler]

I agree with LongWayFromHome, who agrees with Coctailer, Mountainbear and Tactical Insertion.

Keith

+1. If you don't want to get shot then don't do stupid $#!+.

Greg

 

[slingshot1943]

I think shooting a guy with a knife is usually cowardly. They were shooting a mexican with a knife nearly every year in woodburn. Its strange but that stopped after we got a mexican sherrif. Who i voted for by the way for that reason.

 

[greydog111]

Seems that they are building a track record of shootings. Some very warrented, but, some seem that if they were trained better, they would lower their kill rate. This recent one over the weekend of a 60 year old, homeless Viet Nam Vet is very sorryful. There are ways to disarm knife welding assailants, especially if you have a squad of patrol officers. Asian Police have been doing this for countless years--and not shooting the perp. How many mentally ill people have been killed, when in some cases, a less lethal alternaive could have affected the situation. But, likely, the police were never trained in these methods. Sammie is become a public figure at these shootings.

P.S. By example, if several police showed up armed with a pistol and were trained with 40" Escrimasa Riot Sticks, that would do the trick. Simply, take out the legs of the assailant. It is a manditory to show up with a gun, but a crew of officers, with training and sticks, and a few strikes, the legs go out. And of course, this in not an opportunity to beat the person with death with sticks. He'd rather be shot. In this case, the assailant is disarmed without fireing a shot.

I assume you live in multnoma county. WTF do you think the cops are trying to do? Tazer--ineffective. Pepperspray---ineffective. Talking-- are you kidding? Shoot for center mass, stop the threat and lower your round count so that the natives can't bubblegum about "how noisey the gunfire was and ""I can't believe 16 rounds from one gun""." Greydog. P.S. The Phillipino culture is centered around bladed weapons, hence the police are focused on dealing with them. Our scumbag subculture in Portland is centered on substance abuse and suicide by cop. Hence, do what the popo tell you to do or get your sorry butt ventilated!!.

 

[greydog111]

I think shooting a guy with a knife is usually cowardly. They were shooting a mexican with a knife nearly every year in woodburn. Its strange but that stopped after we got a mexican sherrif. Who i voted for by the way for that reason.

Is going home with more holes in your body at the end of the shift than you started with cowardly? Do you know that more people are killed by knives worldwide (in the civilian world) than by gunfire? Where do some of you folks develope your logic and reasoning powers? Game boy? Xbox? World of Warcraft? Get real!! Greydog.

 

[Wheeler44]

With all due respect....I wish that the police could try patience. I don't know enough about this instance. I have watched the vids where it seemed the deceased was killed for not immediately following orders, not threatening the officer. To me there is a small difference.

 

[greydog111]

With all due respect....I wish that the police could try patience. I don't know enough about this instance. I have watched the vids where it seemed the deceased was killed for not immediately following orders, not threatening the officer. To me there is a small difference.

With all due respect to you. Until you have been on the pointy end of the "spear", you have no qualification to address the issue. How long do we have to wait? Ten seconds, ten minutes, ten hours? Have you ever seen the rule of 20 feet played out?. Less time than it takes for you to decide to draw your weapon, remove any safety, and decide to let fly the lead, the tango can cross 20 feet and stab you multiple times. I have 28 years experience as a martial arts, self defence instructor and mililtary, civilian law enforcement, private security experience. I think I can speak for the guys in "blue" by saying that we want to go home to our familys at the end of shift in tact, no extra holes or leaking any fluid not intended by God.
Restraint is good when you have time to contemplate it, but it comes down to training and reaction time to stay alive on the street. Please give us as much consideration as you do the perp. Greydog.

 

[steyr 50]

Wow! I am amazed by some of the posts here. The amazing part is how opinionated some people are who obviously have no experience dealing with the criminal element of our society mentally ill or not. I worked in the Federal Corrections system for six years and have some post sentence supervison experience. This allows me to speak from my own personal experiences.

First of all, being 60 years old does preclude one from being a formidable threat. My corrections career, in part, was ended by a 62 year old inmate who took me for a ride down a flight of stairs. I now have a four inch scar on my lower back to prove how formidable a 60 year old man can be.

Second, I have learned from sitting in numerous review panels just how ignorant some monday morning quarterbacks can be to reality. As mentioned, non of us were there. We do not know how quickly the situation escalated or how many officers were on scene. We saw aftermath video of police cars linning the street. Who do however know that one or more less than lethal options were employed with no affect. As far as disarming a knofe weilding crazy person, your kidding right. Stop watching tv, it has distorted your sense of reality. I don't say that to be rude or offensive to anyone who suggested such in this forum. I simply speak from experience having been faced with the situation more than I would like to admit to. Once is more than enough.

Third, we have to be ralistic in regards to training. How much training do you expect. Certain elements of our community would have officers be psychiatrists. Some martial arts masters, some paramedics, some drug and alcohol counselors, and others babysitters.

Lastly, I would rather have someone point a gun at me than a knife. Mostly just a personal preference. However, more people are killed by knives than guns by a significant margin. Perhaps some training changes can be made but fundamentally speaking, most of the recent situations have played out as they should have. I personally wish that no one died either by the hands of police or criminals but it does and sometimes there is nothing to change.

 

[Wheeler44]

With all due respect to you. Until you have been on the pointy end of the "spear", you have no qualification to address the issue. How long do we have to wait? Ten seconds, ten minutes, ten hours? Have you ever seen the rule of 20 feet played out?. Less time than it takes for you to decide to draw your weapon, remove any safety, and decide to let fly the lead, the tango can cross 20 feet and stab you multiple times. I have 28 years experience as a martial arts, self defence instructor and mililtary, civilian law enforcement, private security experience. I think I can speak for the guys in "blue" by saying that we want to go home to our familys at the end of shift in tact, no extra holes or leaking any fluid not intended by God.
Restraint is good when you have time to contemplate it, but it comes down to training and reaction time to stay alive on the street. Please give us as much consideration as you do the perp. Greydog.

Well....It's good to see that you are as quick to assume as you wish you were, to draw and shoot...Thanks and good day.

 

[Bad Droid]

Is going home with more holes in your body at the end of the shift than you started with cowardly? Do you know that more people are killed by knives worldwide (in the civilian world) than by gunfire? Where do some of you folks develope your logic and reasoning powers? Game boy? Xbox? World of Warcraft? Get real!! Greydog.

^ Agreed. And the cops are screwed either way, and this is coming from me, a guy with very little love for the police. If the police are called into a situation which involves a threatening individual armed with "only" a knife and that person does hurt of kill someone with that knife, I bet all we would hear is: "Those cops should have done something, after all, they had guns and the bad guy only had a knife"

If there's a fight, and someone has a knife, somebody is getting cut.

 

[MA Duce]

I'm not blaming them for their actions, they were well within their rights to shoot. In some cases though it might be worth it to make a go for a non-deadly take-down even after the bean bag doesn't work. I mean, if you're a fit guy with some decent martial arts skills under his belt and you're up against a fat bearded hobo who's gone crazy with a knife, I think you could probably disarm him without seriously endangering yourself. It's all relative of course, I wouldn't try it against a guy who's fit, fast, and looks like he knows how to handle the knife.

Even a fat bearded hobo can get lucky. And again, this decision was made in a split second and these officers just want to go home without holes in their skin. Barring a net and a trained crew the only alternative that is non-lethal after bean bags fail is going hands on. As one fit guy with decent training who has had that opportunity and who has come away with a scar I wear forever I can tell you, anything can happen when you go empty-handed against a knife. I am glad each and every officer went home safely that day.

 

[soberups]

To answer the original poster question; Yes, I do believe that the police should be trained in disarming an assailant with a knife...and the best method for accomplishing that task is to shoot the SOB who is coming at you with one until he drops it.

In a perfect world, with 20/20 hindsight and from behind the safety of a computer monitor, it is pretty easy to advocate for martial arts or other less lethal methods. In this case it appears that a Taser was in fact deployed but failed to work. I am all for making Tasers or spray available for the officers to use at their discretion...but since they are the ones who will die if said methods fail it is pretty arrogant to second-guess what they "should" have done after the fact.

 

[oasis618]

Isn't this what Tasers are for?

 

[The Quiet Man]

Isn't this what Tasers are for?

Sure, if it works through winter clothing... and there is time.

Some of the suggestions I have read on this thread rival what people sent to The Oregonian.. displayed in todays' edition. Things like, "hit them in the face with a long metal pole", "lasso them with a long rope", and "shoot them in the leg".

Come on people. Society (in this case aided by Portland politics and do-gooders) create the problem of streets flooded with homeless people and then expect the police officers to risk their lives when the mentally ill go off their nut and threaten others with deadly weapons.

Fighting someone with a knife isn't rational unless you have no choice in the matter. Anyone carrying a firearm for personal defense should know better, but many have already demonstrated an appalling lack of understanding by their comments.

We need to get the mentally ill off the streets. Until we improve that situation, we will continue to have deadly encounters.

 

[Modeler]

Isn't this what Tasers are for?

Tasers are ineffective on the homeless in the winter. That may sound flippant, but I'm completely serious. During the winter the homeless generally wear 4-6 layers of thick clothing; cotton sweatshirts, wool sweaters and jackets, etc. A 1/4" tazer barb won't get anywhere near the skin and will be completely ineffective.

Greg

 

[MountainBear]

Mike Reese: "With the number of shootings we've had, I've asked our training division to look at them globally right now to see if there's some changes in our tactics or response that we can make right now to prevent additional shootings or to enhance the safety of our officers and citizens."

Here's an idea. Educate the public that if they are armed and threatening others, they will be asked to drop their weapon. If they do not, they forfeit their right not to be shot.
Some of you people cannot be pleased. The officer shoots the ARMED assailant. You complain he should have used non-lethal method (that by the way, would have exponentially increased the risk to the officers involved as well as bystanders). If he had chose not to shoot him and had been injured, or worse, killed, you would be complaining that he should have just shot him.
Here's the bottom line. The guy was armed. He was requested to drop his weapon. Less than lethal means were tried (i.e. tazer). It was ineffective. Suspect still refuses to drop his knife. He is shot.
Tragic, but in my opinion, the officers deserve to go home at the end of the day.

 

[MA Duce]

Here's an idea. Educate the public that if they are armed and threatening others, they will be asked to drop their weapon. If they do not, they forfeit their right not to be shot.
Some of you people cannot be pleased. The officer shoots the ARMED assailant. You complain he should have used non-lethal method (that by the way, would have exponentially increased the risk to the officers involved as well as bystanders). If he had chose not to shoot him and had been injured, or worse, killed, you would be complaining that he should have just shot him.
Here's the bottom line. The guy was armed. He was requested to drop his weapon. Less than lethal means were tried (i.e. tazer). It was ineffective. Suspect still refuses to drop his knife. He is shot.
Tragic, but in my opinion, the officers deserve to go home at the end of the day.

Don't get much simpler than that.