Disturbing legal trend with firearm training

[Yarome]

It's not what you think from the splash screen. Some really good info in this pertaining to training and protecting yourself from a legal standpoint if you may find yourself involved in a SD situation. Make note of the comments at the 10:15 mark.

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[Koda]

Short version, dont talk about your training, keep it a secrete. That might make several members here stand out, especially with a sub forum dedicated to training.

I also thought the part about being a self proclaimed "gun nut" was interesting too....

 

[Dust2Dollars]

 

[huzar]

There's a flip side to this... if you have relevant, high-quality training that covers use of deadly force, deescalation, less-than-lethal means, etc, you want to have that documented in a way that is actually discoverable. Massad Ayoob covers a lot of this in his excellent MAG-40 (or MAG-20 legal) course.

 

[ma96782]

Aloha, Mark

 

[Koda]

There's a flip side to this... if you have relevant, high-quality training that covers use of deadly force, deescalation, less-than-lethal means, etc, you want to have that documented in a way that is actually discoverable. Massad Ayoob covers a lot of this in his excellent MAG-40 (or MAG-20 legal) course.

The premise of the video is that there is a new trend prosecutors are using your training against you. IE, because you were trained you should have know to; deescalate, retreat, chose less than lethal etc.

 

[ma96782]

Awwww.........Come on man.
The DA is just trying to help his buddies that practice Tort Law.

Spread the Wealth.

Rrrrrright.....as long as it's Anti-Gun. Anyone and any company......should be afraid.

WAIT, Wait, wait.....what brand of ammo was used here?

Aloha, Mark

 

[Xaevian]

The premise of the video is that there is a new trend prosecutors are using your training against you. IE, because you were trained you should have know to; deescalate, retreat, chose less than lethal etc.

So more fearmongering and rumors, got it...

Never watch that channel, too much clickbait. Goes with the Guns & Gadgets clown, Alex Jonesing for Cash, et al.

 

[Koda]

So more fearmongering and rumors, got it...

Never watch that channel, too much clickbait. Goes with the Guns & Gadgets clown, Alex Jonesing for Cash, et al.

Ive never hear of that channel till now, but I have no doubt anything can be used against you.

 

[Xaevian]

Ive never hear of that channel till now, but I have no doubt anything can be used against you.

Sure, anything can be used against someone, but not to a level of absurdity. Reasonable doubt still applies, unless they are talking a civil action.

Do they cite one case, even one case, where this actually happens successfully? Granted, every state has a different set of laws, and I know where martial arts training has resulted in manslaughter convictions, but those people were all determined to be either the aggressor or equal party.

I say this often, but it never hurts to repeat:
Every situation is unique where the law is concerned due to the sheer number of factors involved in each one. You can't legally analyze a generalization or a hypothetical vanilla scenario. Anyone that does and claims to be a professional is probably full of it or is now a politician since they suck at practicing law.

 

[RBB4ME]

It's not what you think from the splash screen. Some really good info in this pertaining to training and protecting yourself from a legal standpoint if you may find yourself involved in a SD situation. Make note of the comments at the 10:15 mark.

These attorneys need better arguments. They are relying on classic private citizen explanations. If citizens are now to rely on LEO arguments, then they need to upgrade their justifications. Most military fall into this category as well.

 

[titsonritz]

 

[RBB4ME]

Not sure what this means? Do you need a hug?

 

[parallax]

Not sure what this means? Do you need a hug?

 

[WillametteWill]

Thanks @Yarome for the very interesting video.

Do they cite one case, even one case, where this actually happens successfully?

They make the point that they are seeing trends. It is for each of us to decide our level of being informed and proactive in this area and considering possibilities. Some are not very controllable (e.g., Binger talking about how deadly FMJ bullets are in .223's...I though hollow points were evil???) where others are (i.e., who you take your training from and what material is covered). If you go to a Mas Ayoob class, he will cite you the cases for nearly everything he talks about. These might not always lose a case but one example he uses is the $10,000+ a defendant spent trying to keep out some damming words inscribed onto his gun out of the trial. Spendy.

There's a flip side to this... if you have relevant, high-quality training that covers use of deadly force, deescalation, less-than-lethal means, etc, you want to have that documented in a way that is actually discoverable. Massad Ayoob covers a lot of this in his excellent MAG-40 (or MAG-20 legal) course.

Could not agree more. Mas shows you video tapes of him talking in this class. Why? So when he is contacted (by your attorney or the prosecutor) he will show the jury the actual videos of what was covered (include the good topics you mention above). Good schools focus on the best way to win a gunfight is to not be in one. How do you avoid, deescalate, use non-lethal force, etc. This is worth documenting.

I get their points and believe they have some validity. For some of us who train others and think providing recommendations is worthy for the community, that is a risk I'm willing to take and feel comfortable justifying all the training I attend. That said, I'm frequently in classes with self-described, "Training Junkies" who just take every class they can afford. They, not me, have to justify to the judge and jury why they took the "500 ways to kill someone with a toothpick" class.

Thanks again for posting the video!

 

[bbbass]

I train to stop the threat. PERIOD

 

[WillametteWill]

I train to stop the threat. PERIOD

Agree, and would add leaning how to manage/avoid threats. Stopping a threat does not always involve the use of deadly force, yet some spend most if not all their focus in this realm (not you, your points have always been well thought out for the years I've been on this forum!)

 

[Cerberus Group]

Before I throw my 2 cents in the debacle...I'd like to hear thoughts from other trainers.

 

[Yarome]

They are practicing attorneys and I think the jist was just to be aware of some distrubing trends they have been seeing with prosecutors trying to vilify gun owners by any means.

Basically, don't stop training, but don't go around bragging about it to those who are not in the need to know. It "may" be used against you. Just like... not ever saying "I'm sorry" after a good SD shoot (implying a feeling of guilt) or posting content of an extreme nature that could come back to bite you.

Simply... "food for thought". Being educated and aware of the legal environment we currently live in might just save you some grief. That's all....

 

[Hooyah DeepSea]

This goes along the the old addage, Use only factory ammo in your PDW; to do otherwise opens the gate to "He made special 'killer' ammo", or other stupid but prosecuting attorney used lines.