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Disparity of force ~ CCL holders- need charges
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Slight thread drift...
Something to consider :
For some folks the idea of shooting someone , even when defending themselves , is abhorrent.
Pepper spray and the like , may be good alternatives to shooting someone , for those folks.
Like anything you use to defend yourself , you must practice with it and be willing to use it as well.
Andy
Something to consider :
For some folks the idea of shooting someone , even when defending themselves , is abhorrent.
Pepper spray and the like , may be good alternatives to shooting someone , for those folks.
Like anything you use to defend yourself , you must practice with it and be willing to use it as well.
Andy
Had a similar scenario happen to me except I was listed as the suspect because my assailant called 911 first. In spite of our stories being backed up by video my wife had been filming on her phone I was still listed as the Suspect.
Assailant threatened my wife and told her he was going to kill me for disrespecting his mother during an earlier confrontation where her dog came into my shed and attacked me. I heard the commotion and looked outside to see my wife being menaced by neighbor's grandson, a career felon, and several other of his family members. I went outside and told him to go away and leave us alone. He replied, "I'm gong to end you!" and started moving toward me aggressively. My wife stepped into his was and tried to block his advance and he drew back his fist to punch her. At this time I drew my pistol and moved to a good sight picture and yelled at my wife to move right. Upon seeing my pistol our assailant asked, "What are you going to do, shoot me?" I replied, "Yes, yes, I am." His response was to retreat to his car stating that he had a gun too and was coming back to kill both of us. His family intervened and kept him from retrieving his gun. His girlfriend gave him a cell phone and he called saying that a guy just menaced him with a pistol for just walking down the street. I too called and reported the incident but since I was the second caller the Deputy labeled me the Suspect.
Wrote our statements, etc. Pretty funny when you compare their statements to ours. Luckily, again, we had video to back up our claims. (Now have a network of interlinking camera views) Deputy never searched his car in spite of him being a felon who openly stated he was armed. Deputy acknowledged that error in his final report. Deputy wrote on preliminary report and in his final report that this was a clear case of legal use of force in self defense and in defense of Suspect's wife. Prosecutor clearly wouldn't take a referral and they NEVER pressed charges against our assailant. Complete BS! Logically, if there was a lawful use of force in self defense there had to be an unlawful assault!
Assailant threatened my wife and told her he was going to kill me for disrespecting his mother during an earlier confrontation where her dog came into my shed and attacked me. I heard the commotion and looked outside to see my wife being menaced by neighbor's grandson, a career felon, and several other of his family members. I went outside and told him to go away and leave us alone. He replied, "I'm gong to end you!" and started moving toward me aggressively. My wife stepped into his was and tried to block his advance and he drew back his fist to punch her. At this time I drew my pistol and moved to a good sight picture and yelled at my wife to move right. Upon seeing my pistol our assailant asked, "What are you going to do, shoot me?" I replied, "Yes, yes, I am." His response was to retreat to his car stating that he had a gun too and was coming back to kill both of us. His family intervened and kept him from retrieving his gun. His girlfriend gave him a cell phone and he called saying that a guy just menaced him with a pistol for just walking down the street. I too called and reported the incident but since I was the second caller the Deputy labeled me the Suspect.
Wrote our statements, etc. Pretty funny when you compare their statements to ours. Luckily, again, we had video to back up our claims. (Now have a network of interlinking camera views) Deputy never searched his car in spite of him being a felon who openly stated he was armed. Deputy acknowledged that error in his final report. Deputy wrote on preliminary report and in his final report that this was a clear case of legal use of force in self defense and in defense of Suspect's wife. Prosecutor clearly wouldn't take a referral and they NEVER pressed charges against our assailant. Complete BS! Logically, if there was a lawful use of force in self defense there had to be an unlawful assault!
The problem is if someone is allergic to pepper spray and they die, if you stab or club someone in defense and just as stated in the above story you can become a suspect also along with that can come civil suits. In my case I was robbed at my job at gun point(I was off the clock) and the responding officer said if I would have used my handgun in defense I would have went to jail and been charged.Then he went to say if I defended my self with my knife I would have went home same day charge free. There was two suspects one with a gun one with a knife. I'm almost gave up even the idea of defendeing my self in general. Sorry if I got off topic!
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That makes no sense to me.
1) They guy pointed a gun at you -- how could any sort of self-defense be considered illegal? There's the obvious issue of not drawing on a gun in your face, but setting that aside.
2) If you defended yourself with a knife against a guy with a gun, you wouldn't be going home, charges or not. You'd be dead.
Exactly! That's why I figured why even try to defend my self if that was the outcome! There was also two suspects one with a knife and one with a gun I'm lucky I got away! This was in multlomah county!
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"Something to consider :
For some folks the idea of shooting someone , even when defending themselves , is abhorrent."
I find the idea of shooting somebody abhorrent, even in self defense.
That does not mean I won't do it, just that I don't relish the idea of doing harm.
IMHO there are 2 kinds of people who should not carry a gun:
* Those who couldn't bring themselves to shoot somebody under any conditions,
-and-
* Those who want to shoot somebody and look forward to the "opportunity."
For some folks the idea of shooting someone , even when defending themselves , is abhorrent."
I find the idea of shooting somebody abhorrent, even in self defense.
That does not mean I won't do it, just that I don't relish the idea of doing harm.
IMHO there are 2 kinds of people who should not carry a gun:
* Those who couldn't bring themselves to shoot somebody under any conditions,
-and-
* Those who want to shoot somebody and look forward to the "opportunity."
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What I meant by my statement , that was quoted...is that some folks will not shoot , even in defense of their or others lives....So pepper spray and the like may be of use to them.
A non lethal option for some folks may be the only way they will actually defend themselves.
Speaking only for myself and from my experiences...
While I do not find it abhorrent , I am not going out of my way to find an opportunity either...
It simply was something that was needed to be done if I wanted to live.
Andy
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1.) Andy, we do not disagree.
2) "In this case, the victim may have acted a touch too soon. The suspect was certainly a threatening presence, but he never once actually touched the victim during the incident." (From the article)
Uhh, this is hard to interpret. I have always been taught that you do not allow the threat to close to contact range.
Is he saying that you have to wait until you have actually been struck, grabbed, choked, etc. before you deploy a weapon? Just how bad do you have to let them hurt you before you reply with serious force? If you let them get that close they can contend with you for possession of the gun.
A sucker punch to the head has been known to cause GBH or death. Then it's too late to defend oneself.
I totally agree with GFOD most rikki-tik as the best course of action.
I CC in rt. front pocket or @ 4 o'clock with a long shirt covering the piece where I can have my hand on it from behind without showing it to anybody. Rt. rear pocket works too with a 2" .38 or a .380 sized pocket pistol.
2) "In this case, the victim may have acted a touch too soon. The suspect was certainly a threatening presence, but he never once actually touched the victim during the incident." (From the article)
Uhh, this is hard to interpret. I have always been taught that you do not allow the threat to close to contact range.
Is he saying that you have to wait until you have actually been struck, grabbed, choked, etc. before you deploy a weapon? Just how bad do you have to let them hurt you before you reply with serious force? If you let them get that close they can contend with you for possession of the gun.
A sucker punch to the head has been known to cause GBH or death. Then it's too late to defend oneself.
I totally agree with GFOD most rikki-tik as the best course of action.
I CC in rt. front pocket or @ 4 o'clock with a long shirt covering the piece where I can have my hand on it from behind without showing it to anybody. Rt. rear pocket works too with a 2" .38 or a .380 sized pocket pistol.
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Who gets to decide just what is threatening or a need of self defense , to include the use of deadly force...?
What is threatening to me , may be different that what is threatening to an elderly person or someone with a disability...
The many varying answers and interpretations of just what is threatening gives me pause to be comfortable with the old saying of :
Better to be judged by 12 , than carried by 6....
'Cause those 12 may not think like you do...or even if they do..the opposing Lawyer may muck things up for you...or Mr. Murphy may want to do his thing as well....
Now I am not saying to not defend yourself...far from it.*
Just if you do , be prepared to be :
Judged and second guessed , by folks , who have no real clue about you , your experiences and the situation that your were in...
Things not to turn out in your favor , even if you and your actions were justified...
And for the whole experience to be expensive , in time , money and self reflection.
I say the above , because when twice faced with this very decision , parts of the above actually happened to me.
Andy
*In bold , italics and in living color...in case some folks think that I am against self defense....'cause I am not.
What is threatening to me , may be different that what is threatening to an elderly person or someone with a disability...
The many varying answers and interpretations of just what is threatening gives me pause to be comfortable with the old saying of :
Better to be judged by 12 , than carried by 6....
'Cause those 12 may not think like you do...or even if they do..the opposing Lawyer may muck things up for you...or Mr. Murphy may want to do his thing as well....
Now I am not saying to not defend yourself...far from it.*
Just if you do , be prepared to be :
Judged and second guessed , by folks , who have no real clue about you , your experiences and the situation that your were in...
Things not to turn out in your favor , even if you and your actions were justified...
And for the whole experience to be expensive , in time , money and self reflection.
I say the above , because when twice faced with this very decision , parts of the above actually happened to me.
Andy
*In bold , italics and in living color...in case some folks think that I am against self defense....'cause I am not.
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Given all the various negatives listed - if you have to defend your life using a firearm it's still worth it... if you care to live...but, if you die without defending yourself, well hey, you (well, your loved ones assuming they exist) are only out the cost for your cremation, or burial.
When and if defending your life happens you get to decide:
Do I want to live and face the inevitable consequences of defending myself or simply die...perhaps gruesomely?
When and if defending your life happens you get to decide:
Do I want to live and face the inevitable consequences of defending myself or simply die...perhaps gruesomely?
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The use of pepper spray has been a grey area for me too, Ive heard before that if your justified in using pepper spray, your justified in using lethal force... but that is not true. I recently read an article on it from Andrew Branca that helped clarify it better. He encourages carrying it, the story of the subject here is a great example. If the victim had to shoot the guy his life would have been turned upside down if not destroyed trying to defend his innocence as no physical altercation had happened when he reached for his gun. The question remains, was his life in danger if he hasnt been punched in the face yet? And whether your life is in danger or not, anytime you can get out of a self defense situation without using lethal force the far better you are in justifying the use of force you used.
The difference between pepper spray and a gun is pepper spray is not designed as lethal, so its not using lethal force when applied in a legitimate self defense situation against physical force but not lethal force. Use of force is only justified when it meets the reasonable requirement, you cant get charged with meeting non lethal force with non lethal force, but you can if you meet it with lethal force even if you had no other option.
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"*In bold , italics and in living color...in case some folks think that I am against self defense....'cause I am not."
Andy, nobody would ever think that about you.
Andy, nobody would ever think that about you.
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That was the most amazing thing I have ever seen. How did this moron ever become a Cop?
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As to the original,
1, I am not going to let some scum get their hands on me while I am armed. This is how they get your gun. So have zero problem with the guy showing the gun.
2 The Cop saying he does not like the say nothing. In this situation I would also say what happened. I always tell people to shut up and say nothing AFTER they have to shoot.
3 Pepper (OC), it can be great, it can do almost nothing but enrage people. I have seen large guys drop and almost cry from it, I have seen guys act like it did nothing other than piss them off. It is very unpredictable.
1, I am not going to let some scum get their hands on me while I am armed. This is how they get your gun. So have zero problem with the guy showing the gun.
2 The Cop saying he does not like the say nothing. In this situation I would also say what happened. I always tell people to shut up and say nothing AFTER they have to shoot.
3 Pepper (OC), it can be great, it can do almost nothing but enrage people. I have seen large guys drop and almost cry from it, I have seen guys act like it did nothing other than piss them off. It is very unpredictable.
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Good stuff. That is exactly what is the driving force behind our Escalation of Force training. 12 weeks and we cover a TON of real-life self-defense tools and techniques that include Pepper Spray, Taser, and kubaton/stun devices. Check the curriculum: https://defensivearts.org/eod.
I HIGHLY encourage ALL CHL holders to:
1. Always carry where they can legally after being properly trained.
2. Always have at least 1 less-lethal force multiplier and
3. Always be well trained to use them.
I HIGHLY encourage ALL CHL holders to:
1. Always carry where they can legally after being properly trained.
2. Always have at least 1 less-lethal force multiplier and
3. Always be well trained to use them.
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1) "Just pull over and let em by."
This is good advice. I DON'T want a road rager behind me. In front I can keep an eye on him.
2) "Then he went to say if I defended my self with my knife I would have went home same day charge free."
It seems like use of a knife for SD is harder to defend than a gun. Lacking any "stopping power" any defensive effect from a knife comes either from exanguination or quitting from fear. If you have just reasoned with an assailant with a sharp knife they stuff they will show the jury is gonna be gory. A scalp wound bleeds like a blood fountain, guaranteed to look bad to some pearl clutcher in the jury.
That said I carry a sharp lockblade folder which I would use for SD if I had to, but it sure ain't my 1st choice as a persuader.
This is good advice. I DON'T want a road rager behind me. In front I can keep an eye on him.
2) "Then he went to say if I defended my self with my knife I would have went home same day charge free."
It seems like use of a knife for SD is harder to defend than a gun. Lacking any "stopping power" any defensive effect from a knife comes either from exanguination or quitting from fear. If you have just reasoned with an assailant with a sharp knife they stuff they will show the jury is gonna be gory. A scalp wound bleeds like a blood fountain, guaranteed to look bad to some pearl clutcher in the jury.
That said I carry a sharp lockblade folder which I would use for SD if I had to, but it sure ain't my 1st choice as a persuader.
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It can also dramatically changes the disparity of force equation in the eye of a prosecutor due to the volume and style of training required to wield it as a successful self defense tool. The thought being that If you can fight with a knife, you can fight empty-handed and could have ended the threat without lethal force or at least controlled the degree of escalation. I agree, although I trained for years in Northern Shaolin Kung-Fu to wield bladed weapons in combat, it is not my first choice for self defense. I almost always have one in my EDC gear but it is not considered a front line self defense tool. I always have a quick release pepper spray canister on my support side to accompany my CZ 9mm on the other. When I'm going places I can't carry, the CZ is replaced with a TASER Pulse but the load-out configuration is the same.
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1) "What is threatening to me , may be different that what is threatening to an elderly person or someone with a disability..."
This is the issue for me. I am unable to outrun or go mano-a-mano any credible assailant, and multiple previous injuries and medical conditions make me more susceptible to death/GBH from a punch than the average person. Videos of the "knockout game" prove that a sucker punch can kill or leave devastating injury. It's a good bet that if I ever did find myself in that situation a Democrat DA/AG would try to paint me as a murderous, racist, homophobe, etc... (the usual panoply of denunciations for The Unwoke) out looking to shoot some unfortunate wretch who wouldn't be threatening me with harm if Society had just taken care of him.
"An armed society is a polite society" works for me. I am polite and cordial to everyone and avoid those I can't abide because as a Waffenmensch I really don't want to precipitate an incident that would lead to violence.
2) " The thought being that If you can fight with a knife, you can fight empty-handed and could have ended the threat without lethal force or at least controlled the degree of escalation."
Yeah, I know since we're dealing with THE LAW and .gov/DNC lawyers the truth and reality don't apply. I took lessons in Escrima back in the Dream Time and I remember enough to do GBH, but that doesn't mean I can fight well enough to deal with a fit younger person. Any cretin flailing away with a kitchen knife is extremely dangerous - that's the point (pun intended). As a threat a knife is a deadly weapon in just about anybody's hands
Most people haven't the foggiest how to use a knife as a weapon. I just know how to do it with some previous introduction to technique. If things are so ugly that you're jumping into somebody with a knife they shouldn't know you have it until you have already used it... as many times as possible.
I would really have to be desperate to use a knife as a weapon.
But, then of course that would apply to using a gun as a weapon too.
This is the issue for me. I am unable to outrun or go mano-a-mano any credible assailant, and multiple previous injuries and medical conditions make me more susceptible to death/GBH from a punch than the average person. Videos of the "knockout game" prove that a sucker punch can kill or leave devastating injury. It's a good bet that if I ever did find myself in that situation a Democrat DA/AG would try to paint me as a murderous, racist, homophobe, etc... (the usual panoply of denunciations for The Unwoke) out looking to shoot some unfortunate wretch who wouldn't be threatening me with harm if Society had just taken care of him.
"An armed society is a polite society" works for me. I am polite and cordial to everyone and avoid those I can't abide because as a Waffenmensch I really don't want to precipitate an incident that would lead to violence.
2) " The thought being that If you can fight with a knife, you can fight empty-handed and could have ended the threat without lethal force or at least controlled the degree of escalation."
Yeah, I know since we're dealing with THE LAW and .gov/DNC lawyers the truth and reality don't apply. I took lessons in Escrima back in the Dream Time and I remember enough to do GBH, but that doesn't mean I can fight well enough to deal with a fit younger person. Any cretin flailing away with a kitchen knife is extremely dangerous - that's the point (pun intended
). As a threat a knife is a deadly weapon in just about anybody's hands Most people haven't the foggiest how to use a knife as a weapon. I just know how to do it with some previous introduction to technique. If things are so ugly that you're jumping into somebody with a knife they shouldn't know you have it until you have already used it... as many times as possible.
I would really have to be desperate to use a knife as a weapon.
But, then of course that would apply to using a gun as a weapon too.
