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Yeah.......they even look so much like the real thing......that, the police Buy Back Program could be fooled.

1663351056783.jpeg

Nah........
But, it's all about taking guns off of the street(s). So, it's better to pay.

"If we could just save one life."

Aloha, Mark
 
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I think we have to separate the type of firearm crimes and the people perpetrating them. There are life-long criminals, gang members, mental ill, etc. There are once time offenders who may own a firearm but use it self-defense or felt pushed too far in an argument or whatever. Then there are organizations (fantasy from too many movies?) who has the resources to build firearms.

But all those are included in the stats. But the majority of the recovered PMF are I believe belong in the first category. The second would be those incidents could happened to anyone but it would be like being in an car accident, doesn't happen everyday.

If a career criminal doesn't want added penalties, take a dremel to the stolen Hi-Point serial number making it untraceable. But my stance is there aren't enough incidents to justify banning or even considering banning PMF.
 
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Then there are organizations (fantasy from too many movies?) who has the resources to build firearms.
Except it's not just hollywood fantasy. Only one example of that... There is an active market within the criminal world of hand made clone firearms being produced, mostly in 3rd world countries like Pakistan, Phillipines, and others, being smuggled into the U.S.. Considering the complexity of turning scrap metal into a working firearm that may be difficult to identify as a clone... from the outside... and the organizational complexity of it all, setting up shop domestically to crank out 80% in numbers isn't at all far fetched. It would require far less expertise, network complexity and cost risk.

I'm not encouraging it, but I think we woud be naive to not realize... yeah... in one scale or another it's being done.

That doesn't mean 80%'s should be banned though. That just means we need to do better at catching and removing criminals from our streets. Remove 1 bad actor who likes guns from our streets and that's one less gun that will be stolen, bought off the blackmarket, and used in a crime.

VOILA!! You just effectively reduced crime, prevented an illegal firearm from roaming the streets (aka gun control) and increased public safety all in one pop!

And it didn't require infringing on the basic human liberties of every living soul in the U.S., and all future generations, to get'er done!

If it only saves one, let's lock up criminals!

Just sayin..... ;)
 
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It depends, but blackmarket firearms can actually fetch a pretty high price. Not that there aren't $50 pewers to be had, but depending on where they came from, their history, and other factors, even a $300 handgun might run you $500-$1k on the black market.

I'm also one that doesn't believe the majority of the influx of 80% firearms is being done by one guy building one for himself to go criminal. I believe it happens, but not nearly to the extend the crats want us to believe.

What I DO think where there may be a problem is with the more organized criminal groups running their own 80% factories for resale on the blackmarket. I mean, if I was a criminal, that's just a business opportunity waiting to be exploited. It sure beats the complexity and risk of importing hand made clones in from the phillipines. 🤣

There are some limits to how much they can do from 80%' though. Frames anyway. There are a limited number of mfgs producing them so obtaining large quantities from limited sources can easily throw up red flags.

On the other hand. Say 80% AR receivers... those are easier to diversify your sourcing, but if a criminal was half smart, he would lay hands on a CNC and just crank out his own complete lowers, right? Heck... for that matter... it can't be all that hard to pay off someone already operating a CNC shop to crank them out under the table.. right?

Come to think of it. To blackmarket "throw-a-way" handguns for criminals, why not just invest in a 3D printer and crank out frames at will?

The main point is the same though. Until we shut down the criminals, they will get guns any way that is available to them. Shutting down one avenue of procurment doesn't do diddly squat. They'll just make up for it some other way... IMHO.
I would not be surprised if gangs have a "gunsmith" or two among them.
 
I would not be surprised if gangs have a "gunsmith" or two among them.
I've read a few stories of people getting busted for having a regular "manufacturing" operation going on with 80% receivers. Building them almost production style and selling them to sh!theads.

I don't know what the answer to that is.
 
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RE : Post #44
Since you mentioned the Philippines

I was reminded of this vid that I recently ran across.


Aloha, Mark

PS.....in the Philippines....what would you call the guys who fly the airplane?

1663615868275.png

BTW......my son is half PI. So, you don't want to bother getting all bent out of shape.
 
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RE : Homemade guns
No 80% kit needed. Story starts at 34:50


Did you take note of what was said to be the difference in cost between the homemade and factory version?

Aloha, Mark

PS......not to mention the homemade assassination weapon used to kill Shinzo Abe.
 
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Taking a media report with a grain of salt that "ghost gun" can also mean a firearm with a defaced serial number, I'm gonna go with stealing one as the most risk free. My logic being that anyone willing to illegally possess a firearm and USE it against another person likely has no moral issue with commiting theft. Likely from someone they know.

Buying one off the black market is risky in that you're involving another person you must trust not to rat you out or steal the money off a 14yr old.

Buying all the components to build your own, again, a little spendy for your typical 14yr old and they would have to come up with a CC from somewhere. Gathering the components takes a bit of effort from different sources and may be difficult to hide from parents when you have packages arriving and during the covert building process. It also leaves a paper/electronic trail.

14yr olds can be resourceful, but "see one, take one" still seems the easiest, cheapest and least risky for a child that age. My number 2 would probably be black market. If you got the cash and run around with the wrong people, just about anything is easy to aquire.

Getting someone with a CC to straw purchase components and assemble himself under the nose of his parents would seem the most risky and difficult to accomplish, IMHO.

Also to consider, how did he lay hands on ammo for it? I would go with theft or asking/buying off a friend as well.
Not to discredit your post cause I agree that your arguments are valid, but I think you're coming at this from experience. Yes it would be hard for folks like you and i to get that past our good parents when we were 14. I could never get a package at my door when I was a teen without my mom snooping. I remember I ordered a bong online when I was 15 from an online website with a visa gift card i got for my bday. I figured "hey I'll just grab it off the porch when mom's at work" well it showed up when she was home. I tried to snag the package but she said "open it" (knowing why on earth would my 15 year old have a package). She made me open it and she also made me put it in a garbage bag and smash it on the back porch lol.

But a lot of these gang bangers don't have good parents, or even parents that are attentive.

Case and point I have a very distant relative who came to visit this summer with his family and he was interested in my gun collection. All the family knows im a gun nut so it was the first thing he asked me about. He lives in a not so good area and his parents are not very involved. I let him poke around the safe just to appease his interest. One of the first things he saw was my p80's and he told me "oh is that a p80? Me and my friend have done a few of those". I said, you're 14 isn't that super illegal where you live? He just kinda laughed. I assume no gun shop in their right mind would sell a 14 year old a p80 kit. It's not like he looks like he's 25, he looks 14. I can only assume he's ordered them to his house but I didn't ask.

Nowadays 14 year Olds have credit cards / debit cards and even if not, a couple 100 dollar birthday visa gift cards will get you there. It's not hard to finish a p80 glock frame there's hundreds of YouTube videos that show you how. Same videos I used when I got my first one.

So yeah I'm sure if you look at it on average these little gang bangers are stealing guns majority of the time but we can't discount the fact that these kids can buy stuff online and their parents wouldn't even look twice unlike our parents.
 
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Not to discredit your post cause I agree that your arguments are valid, but I think you're coming at this from experience. Yes it would be hard for folks like you and i to get that past our good parents when we were 14. I could never get a package at my door when I was a teen without my mom snooping. I remember I ordered a bong online when I was 15 from an online website with a visa gift card i got for my bday. I figured "hey I'll just grab it off the porch when mom's at work" well it showed up when she was home. I tried to snag the package but she said "open it" (knowing why on earth would my 15 year old have a package). She made me open it and she also made me put it in a garbage bag and smash it on the back porch lol.

But a lot of these gang bangers don't have good parents, or even parents that are attentive.

Case and point I have a very distant relative who came to visit this summer with his family and he was interested in my gun collection. All the family knows im a gun nut so it was the first thing he asked me about. He lives in a not so good area and his parents are not very involved. I let him poke around the safe just to appease his interest. One of the first things he saw was my p80's and he told me "oh is that a p80? Me and my friend have done a few of those". I said, you're 14 isn't that super illegal where you live? He just kinda laughed. I assume no gun shop in their right mind would sell a 14 year old a p80 kit. It's not like he looks like he's 25, he looks 14. I can only assume he's ordered them to his house but I didn't ask.

Nowadays 14 year Olds have credit cards / debit cards and even if not, a couple 100 dollar birthday visa gift cards will get you there. It's not hard to finish a p80 glock frame there's hundreds of YouTube videos that show you how. Same videos I used when I got my first one.

So yeah I'm sure if you look at it on average these little gang bangers are stealing guns majority of the time but we can't discount the fact that these kids can buy stuff online and their parents wouldn't even look twice unlike our parents.
I agreed with you on the gangbanger and the 14 year old parenting issues. What parents? Just Googled, in 2015, 13.6 million single parent raising over 21.6 m children, most with no father figure growing up.
 
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I agreed with you on the gangbanger and the 14 year old parenting issues. What parents? Just Googled, in 2015, 13.6 million single parent raising over 21.6 m children, most with no father figure growing up.
Yup that's a major part of the problem. Can't tell you how I'd have turned out if it wasn't for my conservative dad kicking my bubblegum into shape a couple times lol
 

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