Discussion 80%'rs vs Other Methods Prohibited Persons Use To Acquire Firearms.

[quneur]

I have no idea what Minisoda State laws are regarding PMF's. If they are legal to own, I would imagine that law would apply similar to many states. Including Oregon. They are legal to sell but have to be serialized and pass a BGC via an FFL.

I'm not aware of anywhere though that requires LE oversight or approval before you can sell a firearm. Only to buy and take possession of one.

"...transfer requirements of section 624.7132..."

Which states:

"every person who agrees to transfer a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon shall report the following information in writing to the chief of police..."

Here in WA state you can't transfer any PMF.

"(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
...
(d) Manufacture, cause to be manufactured, assemble, or cause to be assembled, an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm."

 

[quneur]

But anyway, according to this report:

MSN

648 guns were recovered in Minneapolis in 2022. According to the google report, 69 PMF were recovered. The ratio is 11% which is significant/insignificant depending upon point of view. But the percentage becomes smaller if a portion of those 69 guns were actually stolen which I tend to believe to be the case (> 50%).

 

[Yarome]

Here in WA state you can't transfer any PMF.

"(1) Except as otherwise provided in this section, it is unlawful for any person to:
...
(d) Manufacture, cause to be manufactured, assemble, or cause to be assembled, an untraceable firearm with the intent to sell the untraceable firearm."

Like I said, I don't know anything about Minnesota's gun laws, but the WA deal... that's talking about mfg'ing a PMF. You could not MFG a PMF with the intent to sell, but you could with the intent for personal use. It was then legal to sell your personal PMF if at some point and time that you decided you no longer wanted it. The important part was your intent at the time it was MFG'ed.

As far as I am aware, you MAY still sell a completed PMF (a firearm) in the state of WA as long as it is serialized and lawfully transferred via an FFL.

 

[Yarome]

But anyway, according to this report:

MSN

648 guns were recovered in Minneapolis in 2022. According to the google report, 69 PMF were recovered. The ratio is 11% which is significant/insignificant depending upon point of view. But the percentage becomes smaller if a portion of those 69 guns were actually stolen which I tend to believe to be the case (> 50%).

You can go crazy crossing mixing stats. Ie., 90%+ of criminals involved in gun related crimes report they obtained the firearms illegally (blackmarket or stolen). So out of 69 PMF's recovered in Minneapolis, that would mean that only 7 of them where constructed by a criminal and used to commit a crime.

Less than 1% of all guns recovered. Unless you want to believe that 100% of non PMF fireams recovered where the blackmarket and stolen firearms and 100% of the PMF's where constructed by criminals with the intent of commiting a crime. I think not. It "may" be a little more skewed toward PMF's, but that would still be a very insignificant percentage.

Now... in context of the OP and talking 80% frames and receivers. 69PMF's recovered includes ALL PMF's. Not all PMF's recovered would be 80% frames/receivers. Zip style, slam guns, 3D printed, etc... all fall within PMF's (aka untraceable ghost guns).

Whatever percent where actual 80% type PMF's would drop that 1% of all guns recovered to a mere fraction. 50%? 20%? It's highly likely to be lower, but let's call it what? .5% or .2% where 80%'s?

I hardly call that an epidemic of 80%'s being constructed for criminal use that should require special laws and regulation to abolish them. However, it fits their narrative and it's an easier target than trying to abolish all handguns, rifles and shotguns... which would be an illegal infringement of the constitution. Oh wait.... so is abolishing PMF's. But regulating the market of semi formed chunks of plastic and aluminum out of existance they think should be okay.

 

[Sbarton]

Getto manufacturing plant.
The criminals have internet too! Right?
A dude or two invest in a drill and a dremel, buy a few kits and sell some guns to the homies around the hood. Before you know it, these guys have more work than they can handle.
How many kits could you build in a day?

 

[Idaho44]

I like the information of "nail gun conversions" that are done in China and other countries! Gotta love human creativity! Think about those battery operated tools that don't need the compressor! How about paint ball conversions? 80% kits purchased with cash, the list goes on and on.

 

[Alexx1401]

Poly 80 frames ship to your door and could be done in a couple of hours easily. Snip snip, dremel here, drill there, sand here and you're done. Much lower risk than breaking into to somebody's house to try and steal a firearm.

Keep in mind the young gang bangers have lots of free time and often money on their hands.

I have not looked at these for a while but did the price suddenly drop out? Last time I looked it cost more to buy the parts to put a clone Glock together than it did to just buy one. Criminals? Why would they care about mail order? If you are already a criminal you just buy from another criminal. There is TONS of stolen out there. FAR easier to just buy one. If you are a criminal why would you care? Places like Chi Town have shootings daily. Guns are found daily. Once if a great while they find a "ghost gun". The mountain of guns they find are stolen. They only make a big deal out of the one ghost gun because they want to pretend they are a problem.

 

[ktgee]

The amount of guns I theoretically COULD steal is significant, especially when looking at bro dozers with punisher stickers at Walmart. Bet there's at least one in each of those, so I'm going to say outright theft is still option 1 for many criminals and will continue to be so for decades. No paper trail, very low risk if proper casing were done. I would imagine if I were to have a mind for murder, I'd want no paper trail at all for anything, including ammo/parts which means theft or cash purchases in person. One of which is significantly cheaper than the other

I agree that a lot of guns are stolen and are the option 1. https://katu.com/news/local/car-gun-thefts-increase-portland-police-say
There is criminals that has access to a home, money and resources can DIY. But there are many that don't have access to resources so it's easier to steal. There is plenty of guns out there.
Here is a safe that was jacked on Marine Dr bike path in July 2022

 

[Koda]

I dont know if i fully agree that its easier to steal a gun than build a ghost gun. I agree that in some cases, a criminal might not want a visa "paper" trail, but theres ways around that too with stolen credit cards.
...and they dont have to be expensive builds either, plenty of affordable slide kits and triggers put the total cost on par with a serialized equivalent. And they dont take long at all to build even for a first time builder... And why stop with just one.
I think the pro gun community would be shooting themselves in the foot (pun intended) to ignore the fact that criminals are indeed building and supplying ghost guns on the street.

IDK what the solution should be, but we need to be honest about this.

 

[Yarome]

I have not looked at these for a while but did the price suddenly drop out? Last time I looked it cost more to buy the parts to put a clone Glock together than it did to just buy one.

That depends. There are so many 3rd party parts suppliers you "can" throw a turd together considerably cheaper than a Glock. If it only has to go bang a few times and you're going to throw it away anyway, it probably doesn't matter if it's a turd.

But you're right. An all new OEM build will run you more than just buying one. By a pretty good margin. What you're paying for though is the "fun factor", personal satisfaction and flipping off big brother in the process. That's worth a few extra bucks, IMHO.

 

[Yarome]

I think the pro gun community would be shooting themselves in the foot (pun intended) to ignore the fact that criminals are indeed building and supplying ghost guns on the street.

IDK what the solution should be, but we need to be honest about this.

I'm not sure how it's shooting ourselves in the foot.(?) I think most acknowledge it's going on. I mean... it's bound to and would be an utter shock if someone hadn't figured out how to take advantage of it yet, right?

Just for myself though, I don't see them as any greater threat than people obtaining firearms through theft or the black market. The same as any other firearm type, only a small percentage are involved in crime while the monumental majority are under the control of law abiding citizens. The stats show too that the "epidemic" of PMF's constitute only a hair of a fraction of the illegal guns being confiscated.

We also know that serailzed firearms do not magically solve crimes. Only a tiny percentage actually ever lead to any viable suspect.

I don't believe any targetting of any firearm type is a solution. Firearms aren't the problem to begin with.

 

[Alexx1401]

That depends. There are so many 3rd party parts suppliers you "can" throw a turd together considerably cheaper than a Glock. If it only has to go bang a few times and you're going to throw it away anyway, it probably doesn't matter if it's a turd.

But you're right. An all new OEM build will run you more than just buying one. By a pretty good margin. What you're paying for though is the "fun factor", personal satisfaction and flipping off big brother in the process. That's worth a few extra bucks, IMHO.

I get it for "us". I have never been into Glocks. I have seen some damn nice looking Casper ones done with very nice slides. Was tempted a few times to do one for fun. What I mean is color me VERY skeptical that the criminals are buying these because they are criminals and can't walk into a shop and buy a gun. I VERY much doubt there is suddenly no stolen guns for sale so the scum can't just go buy one. Never tried myself but as many as are stolen I find it real hard to believe there is suddenly a shortage here. The big cites long run by one party, seem to have no shortage of guns for the scum to shoot each other nightly. Again never having tried to buy a stolen one no idea what they run. Find it real hard to swallow that they are so pricey these scum are going to order the parts to build one? I could be wrong but find it hard to believe there stolen guns sell for more than the kit and parts to put one together.

 

[Koda]

I'm not sure how it's shooting ourselves in the foot.(?) I think most acknowledge it's going on. I mean... it's bound to and would be an utter shock if someone hadn't figured out how to take advantage of it yet, right?

As long as were acknowledging its creating an avenue for prohibited persons to get guns then were being honest. Then the question is how much of an impact ghost guns are having on crime?

I think we can all agree that its not in the best interest of gun rights to have more guns in the hands of criminals.

 

[Yarome]

What I mean is color me VERY skeptical that the criminals are buying these because they are criminals and can't walk into a shop and buy a gun. I VERY much doubt there is suddenly no stolen guns for sale so the scum can't just go buy one. Never tried myself but as many as are stolen I find it real hard to believe there is suddenly a shortage here. The big cites long run by one party, seem to have no shortage of guns for the scum to shoot each other nightly. Again never having tried to buy a stolen one no idea what they run. Find it real hard to swallow that they are so pricey these scum are going to order the parts to build one? I could be wrong but find it hard to believe there stolen guns sell for more than the kit and parts to put one together.

It depends, but blackmarket firearms can actually fetch a pretty high price. Not that there aren't $50 pewers to be had, but depending on where they came from, their history, and other factors, even a $300 handgun might run you $500-$1k on the black market.

I'm also one that doesn't believe the majority of the influx of 80% firearms is being done by one guy building one for himself to go criminal. I believe it happens, but not nearly to the extend the crats want us to believe.

What I DO think where there may be a problem is with the more organized criminal groups running their own 80% factories for resale on the blackmarket. I mean, if I was a criminal, that's just a business opportunity waiting to be exploited. It sure beats the complexity and risk of importing hand made clones in from the phillipines.

There are some limits to how much they can do from 80%' though. Frames anyway. There are a limited number of mfgs producing them so obtaining large quantities from limited sources can easily throw up red flags.

On the other hand. Say 80% AR receivers... those are easier to diversify your sourcing, but if a criminal was half smart, he would lay hands on a CNC and just crank out his own complete lowers, right? Heck... for that matter... it can't be all that hard to pay off someone already operating a CNC shop to crank them out under the table.. right?

Come to think of it. To blackmarket "throw-a-way" handguns for criminals, why not just invest in a 3D printer and crank out frames at will?

The main point is the same though. Until we shut down the criminals, they will get guns any way that is available to them. Shutting down one avenue of procurment doesn't do diddly squat. They'll just make up for it some other way... IMHO.

 

[Alexx1401]

As long as were acknowledging its creating an avenue for prohibited persons to get guns then were being honest. Then the question is how much of an impact ghost guns are having on crime?

I think we can all agree that its not in the best interest of gun rights to have more guns in the hands of criminals.

No of course NONE of us want the scum with guns. The difference? Most of us would solve this problem by using the laws we have on the books. The people in charge want to let the scum caught with guns go, then tell us we need more laws aimed at us. A LOT of gun owners then jump on the idea of compromise. Sure, lets compromise some more while the scum are let out over and over again. Just need one more law, that the criminals will of course ignore and we are going to be great? This is why we keep losing. We shoot ourselves every two years at election time

 

[Alexx1401]

It depends, but blackmarket firearms can actually fetch a pretty high price. Not that there aren't $50 pewers to be had, but depending on where they came from, their history, and other factors, even a $300 handgun might run you $500-$1k on the black market.

Damn, never having tried to buy a gun from some guys trunk had no idea they sell for that much. Makes me wonder then why states that still allow people to sell to each other have any guns left. Surprised some are not buying every gun in the classified at places like this to bring to where the buyers are. Easy to see why the dope heads love to steal them. steal a gun that cost $400 and sell it for 1K? Seems like someone could make a killing here. Fill the trunk in a state that still allows the sale and drive over to the city here. Who needs to sell drugs. I guess they have a point wanting to do away with the 80% and gun parts sales then. Seems like setting up a garage factory would pay better than setting up a meth lab.

 

[Yarome]

No of course NONE of us want the scum with guns. The difference? Most of us would solve this problem by using the laws we have on the books.

Precisely. We have a criminal problem. We have an open border problem making it easy to traffic in illegal firearms. We have a public perception problem diverting attention from the true issues we should be addressing. We have a politician problem where political power trumps public safety. The list goes on.

What we don't have, is a firearm problem. Guns don't criminal.

 

[Yarome]

Damn, never having tried to buy a gun from some guys trunk had no idea they sell for that much. Makes me wonder then why states that still allow people to sell to each other have any guns left. Surprised some are not buying every gun in the classified at places like this to bring to where the buyers are. Easy to see why the dope heads love to steal them. steal a gun that cost $400 and sell it for 1K? Seems like someone could make a killing here. Fill the trunk in a state that still allows the sale and drive over to the city here. Who needs to sell drugs. I guess they have a point wanting to do away with the 80% and gun parts sales then. Seems like setting up a garage factory would pay better than setting up a meth lab.

It's a bit more complex than that and a lot of different factors affect street prices, but it "can" be highly lucrative.

Generally speaking though, criminals don't have to create paper trails for themselves buying guns from law abiding citizens. Criminals have their own market systems. Ie., The tweaker example. He steals a gun, he sells it to a guy for $20 or $50. That guy could sell it locally, but it's a local gun, in the same jurisdiction is was stolen from and high risk so he might only get $200-$300 for it. Or, he and his buddies pool their aquired collections together and transport them out of the area to a higher paying market. The more steps removed from it's origin, the cleaner the gun and the more money they can get for them.

Imported clones can be expensive to obtain by the time it hits the streets. Obviously, it's about as pristine/clean as they come and the amount invested has to be recouped at a significant profit. Being highly desireable to the seasoned criminal type... they'll pay.

Simplified, but you get the idea.

 

[ma96782]

RE : Post #4

The NEW MEDIA is constantly redefining stuff and making up new words.

So then......it's no surprise to me, that even what use to be called a "zip gun" could now be defined as a "Ghost Gun".

Ghost Gun Check List.
Home made firearm.
No serial numbers or ligitimate (regulated) manufacturer's markings.



And of course, the internet is full of articles on "How to make ________."

YEAH......even some people in prison.....have managed.

Aloha, Mark

PS......I had too.




LOL. For the Glock Fan Boys.

 

[ma96782]

And on the other end of the spectrum.
The Hi-er Point.



Aloha, Mark