JavaScript is disabled
Our website requires JavaScript to function properly. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser settings before proceeding.
Messages
24,252
Reactions
36,656
Up front I want to reiterate that I do not support any restrictions on firearms, none, notta, zip.

I read another article about a 14yr old who shot and killed a playground worker with a handgun that I presume was built from an 80% frame. The article referred to it as a ghost gun.

It made me wonder about the avenues prohibited persons use to acquire a firearm. The 80% route for a handgun seems like the easiest and least risky route. Stealing one is immoral and fraught with risk. Buying one under the table could be risky as well. A straw purchase may be difficult for a younger person to make happen.

It doesn't surprise me that 80% percent builds are becoming the firearm of choice for young gang bangers and other unsavory characters.
 
I doubt many crimes are committed with 80%'s. The amount of work, skill and time needed to finish one is more than buying a stolen firearm. Look at what one needs to finish an 80%; frame, slide (assuming its a handgun), jig, router and parts kit.
 
I doubt many crimes are committed with 80%'s. The amount of work, skill and time needed to finish one is more than buying a stolen firearm. Look at what one needs to finish an 80%; frame, slide (assuming its a handgun), jig, router and parts kit.
Poly 80 frames ship to your door and could be done in a couple of hours easily. Snip snip, dremel here, drill there, sand here and you're done. Much lower risk than breaking into to somebody's house to try and steal a firearm.

Keep in mind the young gang bangers have lots of free time and often money on their hands.
 
Taking a media report with a grain of salt that "ghost gun" can also mean a firearm with a defaced serial number, I'm gonna go with stealing one as the most risk free. My logic being that anyone willing to illegally possess a firearm and USE it against another person likely has no moral issue with commiting theft. Likely from someone they know.

Buying one off the black market is risky in that you're involving another person you must trust not to rat you out or steal the money off a 14yr old.

Buying all the components to build your own, again, a little spendy for your typical 14yr old and they would have to come up with a CC from somewhere. Gathering the components takes a bit of effort from different sources and may be difficult to hide from parents when you have packages arriving and during the covert building process. It also leaves a paper/electronic trail.

14yr olds can be resourceful, but "see one, take one" still seems the easiest, cheapest and least risky for a child that age. My number 2 would probably be black market. If you got the cash and run around with the wrong people, just about anything is easy to aquire.

Getting someone with a CC to straw purchase components and assemble himself under the nose of his parents would seem the most risky and difficult to accomplish, IMHO.

Also to consider, how did he lay hands on ammo for it? I would go with theft or asking/buying off a friend as well.
 
I doubt many crimes are committed with 80%'s. The amount of work, skill and time needed to finish one is more than buying a stolen firearm. Look at what one needs to finish an 80%; frame, slide (assuming its a handgun), jig, router and parts kit.
I can finish a poly 80 frame in less than 15 minutes with a dremel. The jig they used to come in literally tells you what to remove and how deep. Unless you have to use actual machinery to mill out the guts of the frame, I'd argue it takes almost zero skill. I mean, seriously, I've had BGCs take longer to finish than completing a poly 80 "Glock" usually does for me. We can support unserialized, home made firearms without being dishonest with ourselves
 
I doubt many crimes are committed with 80%'s. The amount of work, skill and time needed to finish one is more than buying a stolen firearm. Look at what one needs to finish an 80%; frame, slide (assuming its a handgun), jig, router and parts kit.
I believe it certainly is on the rise. For an enterprising criminal type, acquiring the parts and producing them for sale on the streets in large numbers could be very lucrative and lower risk than stealing them for sale. Not to mention, easier to meet the street demand for firearms over stealing them one at a time in any bulk numbers.

Guanteed to be "clean" is a great selling point too that might make you a premium price.

With any newer technology there comes the risk of increased abuse, but I personally don't think it does one bit to increase gun related crimes. If they didn't have the option to build with an 80%... like in every decade prior to them being introduced to the market... it's not as if there is any shortage of other means to aquire an illegal firearm if they wanna "criminal".

It's the person that's the problem, not the tools.
 
The amount of guns I theoretically COULD steal is significant, especially when looking at bro dozers with punisher stickers at Walmart. Bet there's at least one in each of those, so I'm going to say outright theft is still option 1 for many criminals and will continue to be so for decades. No paper trail, very low risk if proper casing were done. I would imagine if I were to have a mind for murder, I'd want no paper trail at all for anything, including ammo/parts which means theft or cash purchases in person. One of which is significantly cheaper than the other
 
I can finish a poly 80 frame in less than 15 minutes with a dremel.
If you do enough of them it might, and with the proper tools.... yeah. For a first timer, that may not have a power drill (at minimum), it can take a good deal of time just experimenting with different tools to figure out how to get the tabs... and especially the channel... cleared off/out. The channel being the most difficult and most critical to actual operation.

Considering too that a novice is going to have no familiarity (or little at best) with how internals operate and how everything has to fit together.

I really don't think a 14yr old is going to buy and bang one out without a considerable amount of effort more than it would take you or I.
 
One other factor to consider. Building an 80 does take a bit of motivation, research and patience. Not a terrible amount, but you can't just order the parts all in one on a whim and BOOM it's there... finished product.

Considering todays youth being, predominantly, instant gratification fiends, and considering your criminal type yoots likely having an over abundant lack of any of the above qualities.... Yeah. I'm still going with steal it or buy it. 🤣
 
Theft and black market.

Will some be home builds…. Yea, YouTube.

Does it matter? No. Someone intent on causing harm will find a way.

Restrictions on 80% or anything is the exact same as a lock - it only keeps the honest people honest.



The real problem - parenting.
 
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.fox9.com/news/120-ghost-guns-tied-to-twin-cities-crimes-including-shootings-at-mall-of-america-and-richfield-school

FIFY 👍

I'm still unswayed about "ghost guns" having the impact on crime the left would like us to believe. That article could just as easily read "LE surplus G19's with removed serial numbers". ;)

Not forgetting that serial numbers are only effective in identifing an actual suspect in a miniscule fraction of gun related crimes. A small handful of years ago I recall an article that showed that many police agencies don't even run a check, or at most, on a case by case basis. Stating it's a tool they have available, but highly ineffective and rarely leads to a suspect.

It's just another firearm classification easily targetted to increased gun control. Not unlike an ArmaLite rifle or an SBR.
 
Last Edited:
But how many are those 120 guns are stolen compared to those that actually made and used them?

Many hobbyists will build several firearms and since they're prohibited from selling them, will place them in a safe or in the car and If it gets stolen, just build another one.
 
But how many are those 120 guns are stolen compared to those that actually made and used them?

Many hobbyists will build several firearms and since they're prohibited from selling them, will place them in a safe or in the car and If it gets stolen, just build another one.
It's perfectly legal to sell them. Some states will require they be serialized and pass a BGC, but some states are still "American" and allow private party sales without SN or BCG.

The prohibition is that you may not build a PMF with the "intent" so sell it. "Intended" for personal use, but at some point decide you want to sell it... you're good.

How many are stolen? There is absolutely no way to determine that with any degree of accuracy. Unless the builder puts some type of readily visible identifying markings on it, once it grows legs... she's amnesiac.
 
I think that if laws stopped those intent on immoral violence, we'd already live in a utopian-like state of peace.

I think that the government loves to try and justify further restricting the rights and options of firearm ownership and while they continually go easy on violent criminals who've committed violent crimes, they also demand banning firearms because of violent crime.

I think the ship is sinking and too many people are busy with small details to see the bigger picture.
 
It's perfectly legal to sell them. Some states will require they be serialized and pass a BGC, but some states are still "American" and allow private party sales without SN or BCG.

The prohibition is that you may not build a PMF with the "intent" so sell it. "Intended" for personal use, but at some point decide you want to sell it... you're good.

How many are stolen? There is absolutely no way to determine that with any degree of accuracy. Unless the builder puts some type of readily visible identifying markings on it, once it grows legs... she's amnesiac.
I'm assuming the majority of crimes are committed in dense population areas. In this case, the Twin Cites. After a brief search, Minnesota law considers homemade guns as normal firearms (assuming its a pistol or an AR). My bad.

But it looks like it has to be approved by the police department:

609.66 DANGEROUS WEAPONS

(6)(b)(3)(c)...???

Subd. 1f.Gross misdemeanor; transferring firearm without background check.


A person, other than a federally licensed firearms dealer, who transfers a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to another without complying with the transfer requirements of section 624.7132, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor if the transferee possesses or uses the weapon within one year after the transfer in furtherance of a felony crime of violence, and if:
 
I think that if laws stopped those intent on immoral violence, we'd already live in a utopian-like state of peace.

I think that the government loves to try and justify further restricting the rights and options of firearm ownership and while they continually go easy on violent criminals who've committed violent crimes, they also demand banning firearms because of violent crime.
Yeah. My own feeling... soft on crime makes up a large voting pool for them to rely on for re-election and using gun control is simply a political strategy because so many people can get behind a platform mirroring the publics outrage over school shootings.

There is no rational plan of action in play that will make any difference. They know they aren't doing a single thing to improve pubic safety. It's simply smoke and mirrors for emotion bases votes and whoever can "out-woke" their opponents wins.

Let's face it. Nothing binds people together like a common enemy. Needless deaths of innocents is everyones public enemy #1. The woke just offered them a tangible "enemy" to focus their outrage on. Naturally, they are only infringing on law abiding citizens that wouldn't vote for them anyway so what do they care?
 
Yeah. My own feeling... soft on crime makes up a large voting pool for them to rely on for re-election and using gun control is simply a political strategy because so many people can get behind a platform mirroring the publics outrage over school shootings.

There is no rational plan of action in play that will make any difference. They know they aren't doing a single thing to improve pubic safety. It's simply smoke and mirrors for emotion bases votes and whoever can "out-woke" their opponents wins.

Let's face it. Nothing binds people together like a common enemy. Needless deaths of innocents is everyones public enemy #1. The woke just offered them a tangible "enemy" to focus their outrage on. Naturally, they are only infringing on law abiding citizens that wouldn't vote for them anyway so what do they care?
Huh, judging by Biden's most recent speech, I think public enemy #1 is a different group of people.
 
But it looks like it has to be approved by the police department:

609.66 DANGEROUS WEAPONS

(6)(b)(3)(c)...???

Subd. 1f.Gross misdemeanor; transferring firearm without background check.


A person, other than a federally licensed firearms dealer, who transfers a pistol or semiautomatic military-style assault weapon to another without complying with the transfer requirements of section 624.7132, is guilty of a gross misdemeanor if the transferee possesses or uses the weapon within one year after the transfer in furtherance of a felony crime of violence, and if:
I have no idea what Minisoda State laws are regarding PMF's. If they are legal to own, I would imagine that law would apply similar to many states. Including Oregon. They are legal to sell but have to be serialized and pass a BGC via an FFL.

I'm not aware of anywhere though that requires LE oversight or approval before you can sell a firearm. Only to buy and take possession of one.
 

Upcoming Events

Tillamook Gun & Knife Show
Tillamook, OR
"The Original" Kalispell Gun Show
Kalispell, MT
Kids Firearm Safety 2 Class
Springfield, OR
Teen Rifle 1 Class
Springfield, OR

New Resource Reviews

New Classified Ads

Back Top