Quantcast
  1. Sign up now and join over 35,000 northwest gun owners. It's quick, easy, and 100% free!

Did I screw up with Fixed Tubular VEPR12 Purchase? Options for Folding Mechanism?

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by 4Freedom, Jul 24, 2014.

  1. 4Freedom

    4Freedom Boise, Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    815
    I just purchased a new VEPR12 and already paid for it from Classic Firearms. Unfortunately, I thought it had a folding stock and realized after it was too late that the models they carry have fixed tubular stock, that is the same as the folding stock, but without the folding mechanism.. Considering, I am a lefty with a shotgun/rifle anyhow, most out of box folding stocks never really suited me. After purchasing my VEPR12 from classic firearms I found one with folding stock on Centerfire Systems, but I don't think people at Classic Firearms will refund my purchase now. Anyhow, I don't even know if I want them to as I also heard there is some issues with the traditional folding stock. Also, the VEPR12 I bought has a new tubular stock and has same config as the folding stock VEPR12's, unlike the previous ones with longer barrel and fixed cheap plastic/wood stock.

    What I am wondering is how hard would it be for me to remove the tubular stock if I decide I don't like it or how hard would it be for me to take the tubular stock and put a folding mechanism on it? I also was told there could be some issues with 922 compliance if you turn the gun into a folder using all the original Russian components.

    I bought this gun because I always wanted one and was going to wait until next year to buy one, as I thought they were getting cheaper and more available. However, now that imperialist dictator Obama Hussein has declared a ban on all Kalashnikov Concern rifles, which includes Saigas, VEPRs, etc, I was forced to quickly make the purchase. These are becoming very hard to find and hte prices are skyrocketing. I paid about $950 shipped for this shotgun and found an FFL who won't charge me sales tax, which means I got a pretty good deal as these are going for a lot of money.

    Since I am not in a position anymore to shop around, I just would like to know what I can do if I decide I want to put a folder on my gun or if I can remove the fixed tubular stock and add a folding mechanism to it and even use the current VEPR tubular stock. Would this cause any 922r compliance issues?

    Also, I have a Saiga 12, which I am planning on selling and have tons of SureFire 12rd Saiga magazines. Does anyone know if there is any way to make my Saiga magazines compatible with the VEPR 12 mags. Looking at the pictures of SGM VEPR magazines and Saiga 12 magainzes they look almost identical. I am wondering if some minor adjustments on the gun or magazines themselves would allow them to be compatible? If not, I will have to wait until SGM VEPR mags are available again, they are sold out everywhere.

    I am really excited to get one of these and it is heartbreaking that Americans will no longer be able to buy these nice quality true Kalashnikov shotguns and rifles anymore. Of course, he did this in the name of protecting the American people.. I am sure Russia will go bankrupt over this. :rolleyes: Yeah, of course, the Tyrant in Cheif, will look for any opportunity to punish American citizens and was all too excited to strip Americans of their rights to own these guns.. It really sucks..
     
  2. 4Freedom

    4Freedom Boise, Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    815
    Mods.. Can you please move this thread to Rifle & Shotgun Discussion.. Sorry, I screwed up posting it here.. My mistake.
     
  3. John H

    John H Whatcom County Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    793
    Likes Received:
    489

    What you mean is you found a FFL willing to break the law, and put himself and business in jeopardy..
     
    deen_ad likes this.
  4. 4Freedom

    4Freedom Boise, Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    815
    According to him he is not breaking the law and that the enforcement of the sales tax is not required by the state of Washington.. He says he has researched the laws and that the government doesn't actually enforce the collection of sales tax on out-of-state gun purchases. Therefore, just as if I was ordering a washing machine or television, I am responsible for sending the sales tax to the Washington Department of Revenue, myself. The state of WA is trying to push for a special Use Tax that will treat guns differently than other purchases, therefore requiring immediate tax collection. But these tax law still haven't been passed or implemented.

    Anyhow, I guess my question won't be answered.. I didn't want to get in a debate of ethics or legality of paying sales tax. That is way off the topic here.. If you like maybe I can start a new thread on that issue.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2014
  5. billcoe

    billcoe PDX Platinum Supporter Platinum Supporter

    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    385
    You have a lot of things in your posts. I'll try to lay down what I know. As I understand it, there are 2 kinds of stock attachments on the shotguns. Only 2. The tubular folders are not a typical configuration and different than everything else so I'm pretty sure you could not just buy one and replace your fixed stock, different connection. Everything else is easily replaced. I would ask someone like Chris Bonesteel who makes some replacement stocks for these shotguns. He'd know for sure about yours specifically. http://www.bonesteelarms.com/Folding-Stocks_c10.htm?page=all
    Additionally - the guys on the Vepr.org forum do this stuff all day long, they'd be a good resource.

    As far as the 922r question. They debate this all day long on the various places. Everyone has opinions and they are all different. I have an opinion too and could be wrong. I've read it carefully multiple times and do not believe it would even come close to apply to just changing out a stock on a personal firearm, but I'd suggest that you read it yourself and make up your own mind. I'm not a lawyer, I don't even play one on TV. I doubt replacing the stock would trigger the law as the law is designed to restrict manufacturing of the guns, not folks making a change for themselves - but why not ask the ATF.

    Welcome to Vepr shotgun ownership, like you, I find the things amazingly versatile and engaging. I'm sure the sanctions will be lifted at some point and they'll come back.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2014
    8ball likes this.
  6. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,770
    Likes Received:
    6,998
    The only way you'll find out is when you sell it in two weeks (of tremendous pimping), as intended. oof go away
     
  7. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,770
    Likes Received:
    6,998
    Lol, that was pretty funny but good on you for doing the best visibility action. code for what a dick. So how much? lolz
     
  8. Certaindeaf

    Certaindeaf SE Portland Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,770
    Likes Received:
    6,998
    Maybe in a couple-ten years you'll tell us if you "screwed up". I just have to laugh
     
  9. 4Freedom

    4Freedom Boise, Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    815
    Thanks for the reply BillCoe, I joined up in the VEPR forums and have already learned a bunch of new things.. I have a whole new dilemma now which has moved to the front seat, called "magazines". I've heard nothing but gripes about the SGM mags performing poorly. With the ban being implemented, I can no longer purchase the better performing OEM mags. I am told that another manufacturer will be coming out with steel mags, but they will only have 8rd capacity. I may buy some of the SGM 12 rounders but will have to do some mods on them , as I hear they do not function well out of the box and not reliable. I also am thinking of converting my Saiga SureFire mags into VEPR mags which a guy on VEPR forums has done himself and showed the process.

    I am real excited to get my VEPR and looking forward to actually shootingit.. I have yet to shoot or even hold a VEPR shotgun. I've always dreamed of having one of these things.. Hopefully, all the pains I have had with Saiga 12 will be remedied with this shotgun. Now, only if I could find some decent mags.


    Certaindeaf, whatchu smokin' there? :confused:
     
    8ball likes this.
  10. 8ball

    8ball WA Quit talkin' and start chalking!

    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    224
    I love my VEPR folding stock, but as Bill pointed out, your model has the advantage of being compatible with the third party stocks, which the folders are not without modification. Vepr.org is the place to find out more.

    I bought two of the SGM mags and they don't work well for me. Luckily I got a deal on several of the genuine eight rounders last month. [emoji1]

    And to be clear, Molot is not affected by the Obama exec order last time I checked.
     
  11. 4Freedom

    4Freedom Boise, Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    815
    Thanks for your post 8ball and the information. Yeah, maybe I feel better now about buying the fixed tubular stock.. I will probably look into putting an American folding stock that would be more suitable for a left and sell the fixed tubular stock, which will probably go for a high price.

    Sadly, yes, Molot is affected. There will be no more VEPRs.. This is coming from the guys on VEPR.org and every single vendor I have contacted on the internet, including Classic Arms who claims they will only be getting one last shipment of the VEPRs, which I have pre-ordered and eagerly awaiting to receive.

    According to all the sources I am finding, Molot is part of the Kalashnikov Concern and Obama has included Molot with the list of Russian firearm manufacturers that will be banned from import into USA via the Executive Order.

    This is a very sad day, as these are the best semi auto tactical style shotguns you can buy for the money and one of the few that are magazine fed.

    I just ordered three 12rd SGM magazines. I heard they are crap , but there isn't at this point, any other magazines for this gun available, as all the factory OEM mags are to be banned from further import. I hear a company CSSpecs is going to be manufacturing some 8 round metal magazines for the VEPR, but not sure when they will be released or if they will be affordable. I actually would have preferred 10 round magazines.

    After researching a website, I found a guy who wrote an article about the SGM mags and show modifications he made to make them more reliable. It sounds like it will be a bit of a project, but worth it. I also am looking into converting my SureFire 12 rd Saiga mags into VEPR mags. A guy on VEPR.org showed how he converted the AGP Saiga mags to fit into his VEPR and I will try to apply the same thing to my Saiga magazines if I can.
     
  12. 8ball

    8ball WA Quit talkin' and start chalking!

    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    224
    Good luck with the SGM mags! I did see the mod info - let me know if it works for you.

    I probably should have ordered more eight rounders from Legion at $55 when they were running the special last month!

    Molot is definitely not named in the executive order that bans Kalashnikov (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/OFAC-Enforcement/Pages/20140716.aspx). I did read something that said Kalashnikov bought Molot, which would be a problem. :(
     
  13. 4Freedom

    4Freedom Boise, Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    815
    Well, something tells me Molot is banned , even if it is not plain and simple from the writing. Either that or all these gun stores are lying and deceiving their customers to get everyone to buy out their supplies. That would be quite devious and I would think they would get a bad rep for doing so.

    Yeah, I will we see what I can do to get these mags to fit properly in this gun.. I am still waiting on my order to be shipped from me. I ordered from Classic Firearms and they said that the orders will be starting to ship out this week. Until the gun is in my hands, I will worry a bit..

    I am going to contact the CSSPECS company and see what the scoop is on when they will be releasing their 8 rounders for VEPRs. The metal mags look more promising.
     
  14. 8ball

    8ball WA Quit talkin' and start chalking!

    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    224
    Yeah, looks like that is right - Izhmash/Kalashnikov 'seized' Molot a few years ago, in typical Russian style. I stand corrected. Even though Molot wasn't named, it's owned by the big K.

    http://modernrifleman.net/2014/07/22/explaining-the-sanctions/
     
  15. deen_ad

    deen_ad Vancouver, WA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,089
    Likes Received:
    1,310
    <- Why there aren't any school shootings in Israel!
    Teacher with long gun slung over her shoulder!!!


    Actually it IS answered, the WA DOR has a page on their website that lays out the rules for sales/use tax collection. Your "dealer" is WRONG, he is responsible for collecting the sales/use tax and remitting it to the State. As the former owner (Mike) of Brightwater after they audited him and he had to pay the uncollected sales/use tax. Some of us did pay what was owed on our purchases. Right now I'm on a very slow, almost dial up speed WiFi at an RV park so I'm limited as to what I can get to but I'll try to find it anyway.

    OK: here it is, your "dealer" is dead wrong!
    http://dor.wa.gov/docs/pubs/specialnotices/2011/sn_11_firearmsusetax.pdf

    Deen
    NRA Life Member, Benefactor Level
    NRA Golden Eagle member
    Defender of Freedom Award

    "A gun is like a parachute. If you need one and don't have it, you'll probably never need one again!"
     
  16. 4Freedom

    4Freedom Boise, Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    815

    Wow, didn't know that .. Thanks.. I will go find another FFL then who follows the rules..

    I don't want the thread turning into a gun sales tax thread, but I do like to make one comment.. According to this same law, all WA residents who are shopping in Oregon are breaking the law and at any time may be audited by WA DOR and be forced to cough up sales tax on all those big screen TVs, power tools, furniture, etc, etc.

    Anyhow, I do appreciate the information again.. Thank you.
     
  17. 8ball

    8ball WA Quit talkin' and start chalking!

    Messages:
    977
    Likes Received:
    224
    Use tax has been the law for decades, hasn't it?

    The difference with firearms is that interstate distribution is controlled, so it's easy for the DOR to audit dealers. They aren't easily able to audit every citizen for other out of state purchases because we have no state income tax return.

    You can legally buy long guns in OR without paying tax at the dealer if you are that eager to avoid paying the use tax (until/unless you get audited).
     
    Blitzkrieg likes this.
  18. 4Freedom

    4Freedom Boise, Idaho Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,122
    Likes Received:
    815
    If a dealer doesn't want to charge me tax , what can I do? Anyhow, it's his choice not to charge me the tax.. He is an FFL dealer, so I should leave it up to him. If he gets audited and I am told I need to pay it, I won't object.
     
  19. billcoe

    billcoe PDX Platinum Supporter Platinum Supporter

    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    385
    Glad you found the VEPR forum, those guys have these things wired front and back it seems. Good resource. I've been lucky and my SGM mags (both 10 round and 12 round) run fine. 100 percent perfect. Of course, when they worked correctly, people rarely posted that up, it was the squeaky wheel that got the grease. Early batches of the SGM mags had 2 easily corrected issues that were widely discussed until people got a handle on the issue:

    1st) Some were cooled out of the molds improperly and when the plastic cooled it shrank, turning convex. The convex nature caused drag on the follower, easily fixed by shaving down the follower to obtain clearance, but SGM warrants the mags so they are easily traded in for good ones. This should be a non-issue with any mag you buy now as the factory is looking for this issue in production.

    2nd) They had occasions where plastic flash inside the mag wasn't cleaned out well. Usually just cranking the follower up and down a few times broke off the little pieces that had been overlooked in the Mfg process and then they'd work fine, but sometimes people would open them up to get to it. This should also be a non-issue as the factory is also looking for this issue in production.

    In addition to the 8 round CSS metal mags coming out, there is an SGM 25 round drum for the VEPR 12 in the works that should be out at some point. I suspect it might be too bulky in real life to be effective, but it looks real fun and I'll still want to try it out. Most of the major places are pre-selling them for $99. http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/component/virtuemart/shipping-accessories/vepr-12-sgm-tactical-25-round-drum-detail.html?Itemid=0
    I'd bought some Saiga MD Arms drums I'm selling for a slight loss of $95 which I never got to try, one left of the 3 I'd bought. (I bought the mags intending to get a Saiga but then the VEPR 12's arrived) . If anyone needs one - http://www.northwestfirearms.com/threads/md-20-drums-for-a-saiga-12-ga.173680/

    As far as the ban. There is a lot of sanctions in play and they are probably looking at more. It's better than a war: hope it hurts where it matters and Putin and the rest cave in soon. Molot products will be back.
     
  20. billcoe

    billcoe PDX Platinum Supporter Platinum Supporter

    Messages:
    758
    Likes Received:
    385
    Of note, when you take it out first time, make sure to start out with the shotgun wear points well lubed but otherwise plain and not modded (including no added recoil pad or muzzel break which will soften recoil and thus increase the chance of a jam) with factory approved shotgun ammo. Vepr says MINIMUM 1-1/8 ounce weight of shot and 1200 FPS or better. I'd start out with the 5 round mag and @ 1600 FPS buckshot in 3-3/4" shells aimed at a stationary target not too far away. Once you confirm it's running 100 percent (they usually do run perfect with stronger ammo), then work back and see if cheap low brass Walmart ammo (which the factory suggests not running) will work. Of cheap underpowered ammo, Federal and Noble Sport seem to work better than Winchester for most folks.

    Then add recoil pads, sighting devices, breaks each in turn to see if there is a negative effect that will cause a jam etc etc......Then move on to the trap loads and clays etc etc.

    Even a red dot sight perched up on the rail can cause jams if it's too far forward or too large. Make sure the thread protector is on solid too before you start.