Detonics Question

[carpcousin]

I've got a Detonics Combat Master .45 that I inherited from my Dad when he passed away early this year. I haven't found any paperwork he may have had for it, but I do know that he had some kind of relationship with Richard Niemer - probably just as a customer. For many years he shot competitively with a .38 super which I think started as a Colt .45 which Mr. Niemer did a lot of work on for him. The slide has is engraved with my Dad's name on one side and Mr. Niemer's on the other side. I don't have pics from both sides but this is the gun:



Back to the Detonics - I don't know if he got this before the custom work he had done by Mr. Niemer - or after. In fact, though we've been in the Seattle area since he transferred here in 1979 (law enforcement), I'm inclined to believe he got this pistol before that, when he was working in Chicago. This is about as much background as I have - except one other thing: I noticed that he has more than one black padded plush-lined Detonics zippered case. In fact I think I found 3 when I went through his stuff. So it is possible this is not the only Detonics pistol he ever owned.

My question for the community is about the serial number. Everything I can find says that the earliest Detonics production serial numbers start at 2000. But the only markings on my Dad's pistol are "DETONICS .45", "PAT. PENDING", and then on the other side of the slide "CR11088". Is that last number the serial number? And if so, does that make it the 9,088th unit, or is there another way to read that?



Thanks for any help.

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[edzz]

Parts gun---
The frame is a stainless-steel these started at CR10000 (~1980 I'd have to check my records) note the lack of roll stamp that would normally be placed above the serial number. CR11088 is the full serial number.
The slide is an earlier carbon steel (blued) note the bottom of ejection port is a straight line and the patent pending marks.
The hammer looks to be a very early design or possibly a copy of the early design. One I had with that hammer style was sn 40xx.
The recoil mechanism if early is a two spring, if later and same era as frame will have three. Both work about the same.

The serial numbers do not indicate total productions.

 

[spookshack]

@Cerberus Group might be able to add to this discussion?

 

[Cerberus Group]

Unfortunately I don't have any info on Detonics production numbers etc.

Any pistol touched by Neimer is a treasure.

He taught me everything about building and tuning 1911s. When he passed I received all his tools.

At his funeral there was a photo taken of us with our "Neimer" guns. If I recall correctly, there were about 35 or more in the photo, each holding our Neimer 1911s.

Here's a pic of what Richard called a Dolt. Detonics slide on a Colt Officer frame.



My Colt Commander. I built it, but Richard, in true Richard form, had to go through it and evaluate the build. Col Cooper shot it as well.

 

[carpcousin]

Parts gun---
The frame is a stainless-steel these started at CR10000 (~1980 I'd have to check my records) note the lack of roll stamp that would normally be placed above the serial number. CR11088 is the full serial number.
The slide is an earlier carbon steel (blued) note the bottom of ejection port is a straight line and the patent pending marks.
The hammer looks to be a very early design or possibly a copy of the early design. One I had with that hammer style was sn 40xx.
The recoil mechanism if early is a two spring, if later and same era as frame will have three. Both work about the same.

The serial numbers do not indicate total productions.

Thank you for the reply @edzz . This is great feedback, I'm grateful. I took a look this morning:

1. I believe I'm seeing 3 springs here. I don't know if the earlier two and three spring versions are interchangeable, but my dad modified/customized nearly all of his guns, so I will not be surprised to eventually come across a bin of Detonics parts including alternate recoil apparatus:


2. When I was looking for this, I noticed this engraving also on the ceiling of the slide:


"59 65" - no idea what that means or who put it there. I have another hobby in which I sometimes tinker with old mechanical watches and it is standard practice for watchsmiths to engrave notations and identifying marks inside the case of a watch. This reminds me of that - but especially in his later years my dad did a fair bit of his own gun work and he may have made the marks himself.

Two other things I'll add:

First, I found some notes last night in a folder in which my dad appeared to be trying to collate details for guns from his collection he was looking to sell. For this one, he noted "Custom made by former head gunsmith for Detonics" - this might seem to fit with your suggestion that it was made from parts rather than a production model. My dad's notes also include "ambidextrous safety, custom hammer....Detonics Rug" - The safety is marked "A.D. Swenson, Fall Brook Calif." Don't know what a "rug" is.

The second thing is that, admittedly I'm no expert in gun finishes - but IMHO this gun seems plated/coated to me. Nickel if I had to guess. I don't know if it is stainless underneath that, and if that is what you meant - but I do think the frame looks plated, especially where there are machine/tool marks visible.

Thanks again, so much, for your input.

 

[osprey]

The Detonics "rug" is one of those plush lined zippered cases you found. Nice piece!

 

[carpcousin]

Unfortunately I don't have any info on Detonics production numbers etc.

Any pistol touched by Neimer is a treasure.

He taught me everything about building and tuning 1911s. When he passed I received all his tools.

At his funeral there was a photo taken of us with our "Neimer" guns. If I recall correctly, there were about 35 or more in the photo, each holding our Neimer 1911s.

Here's a pic of what Richard called a Dolt. Detonics slide on a Colt Officer frame.

View attachment 1275631

My Colt Commander. I built it, but Richard, in true Richard form, had to go through it and evaluate the build. Col Cooper shot it as well.

View attachment 1275632

Thank you for this input @Cerberus Group . The finishes on your first pic seem to match those on my dad's pistol. After reading your bio on your site, I'd be VERY surprised if you and my dad were not at least known to each other.

Thanks again.

 

[Cerberus Group]

Thank you for this input @Cerberus Group . The finishes on your first pic seem to match those on my dad's pistol. After reading your bio on your site, I'd be VERY surprised if you and my dad were not at least known to each other.

Thanks again.

It's a possibility, but Richard's work was far reaching.

If you feel comfortable, PM his name...

 

[edzz]

As I mentioned the slide is from an earlier series, the blued (carbon steel) guns required more fitting than the later stainless steel guns. The blued guns required their frames and slides be mated before for blueing, the engraving inside the slide indicates the frame (s/n) that the slide was originally mated to prior to being repurposed with the stainless frame.

The frame is not plated. The frame was glass bead blasted to provide a satin finish, makes it very easy to refinish the frame and eliminate the "idiot mark" below the slide stop.

The recoil mechanisms 2 or 3 spring are interchangeable.

A.D. Swenson was one of the big name gunsmiths back in the day and sold many of his popular parts.

 

[po18guy]

I fired prototype P4 when I chance encountered Sid Woodcock at the SPAA range in Seattle way back when. My FFL partner owned a Detonics or two, but I never did. At the time, Mr. Woodcock was firing some 230 grain ball rounds loaded with a stout charge of Unique to test the strength of mounting the front sight with a 4-40 socket-head screw. Quite an amiable fellow. Sadly, as with so many ahead-of-their-time products, it had trouble catching traction among shooters, as well as the normal start-up corporate and manufacturing problems.

 

[edzz]

I fired prototype P4 when I chance encountered Sid Woodcock at the SPAA range in Seattle way back when. My FFL partner owned a Detonics or two, but I never did. At the time, Mr. Woodcock was firing some 230 grain ball rounds loaded with a stout charge of Unique to test the strength of mounting the front sight with a 4-40 socket-head screw. Quite an amiable fellow. Sadly, as with so many ahead-of-their-time products, it had trouble catching traction among shooters, as well as the normal start-up corporate and manufacturing problems.

FWIW the screw secured sights didn't survive long term.

Sid was a very interesting man. Great story teller.

 

[po18guy]

FWIW the screw secured sights didn't survive long term.

Sid was a very interesting man. Great story teller.

I noted that, even though it survived that day's testing, it did not go into production. Detonics is an interesting, if somewhat sad bit of firearm manufacturing history.