Other State Deputy sheriff enters IRS office to ask a question & guard pulls gun on him

[Talos32]

While sound would be nice, after watching it a few times the body language of the idiot was all I needed to see to not be surprised the Guard is being charged with a crime. The LEO is trying to leave, Barney has his gun out and is then trying to stop the LEO with gun in hand. This is a great way to have a disastrous accidental discharge. If the building was being guarded by Federal Cops I would hope you would not see this kind of show. If Barney told the LEO he could not carry and LEO told him to F off even, then call 911 and tell them some guy dressed as a Cop, is refusing to follow my authority. When guy dressed as a Cop is leaving? Let him go. It is amazing he did not touch off a round. It is also amazing to me that some want to defend Barney. The IRS needs to budget enough money to have off duty LEO's as guards there, or it they really insist on armed guards pay enough to have pro's. There are a LOT of places that hire LEO's who are retried or on days off for this who would not have done this.

Do we know what this guard's training and the IRS/FPS policies are? Perhaps his instructions were to detain someone who brings a weapon into the building. He might have been told to use the gun he was given if needed.

When the deputy simple ignored him and walked away he was probably confused- I would bet he wasn't told how to handle someone in a uniform saying "I'm a cop, you can't make me." Looks to me in that video like he is someone struggling to do his job and follow instructions but not clear on how far he can escalate if the offender refuses to comply.

Again, the deputy was on federal property violating federal law. Maybe it was an honest mistake but, as someone who deals with the law daily, he should know better than to think he can just leave without repercussions.

 

[Talos32]

@No_Regerts has the pulse of this.

I bet money that had the guard let him through, and this deputy turned out to be someone looking to kill his ex-wife, most of the people here shouting "Mall Cop/Barney Fife" insults would instead be saying:
"The deputy was breaking federal law!"
"You have security procedures precisely to stop this!"
"Why didn't the guard do something-there's a reason he has a gun!"

The law is the law. If that deputy was worth a damn, when he was told he was violating federal law and being detained he would sit quietly and try and sort it out when the FPS arrived. Frankly, the sick leave for "emotional trauma," lawsuit, and the playing of the race card that I've seen in other accounts of this event tell me all I need to know about his character.

The guard didn't perform great, but he also was probably never trained for or expected a situation like that.

 

[4Freedom]

One more ironic thing people probably don't realize is this guy calls the very same cops to come arrest their fellow officer for violating their gun rules. Yet, all of them show up wearing guns. So, now it is official business, please arrest your fellow officer because we didn't call him here and he is wearing his gun that he would have to use to arrest another officer violating "their rules". It is a very funny situation.

To be honest, this whole situation is the result of the Federal government trampling and stomping on our Constitution. Sorry, that I am not sympathetic to the IRS (another unconstitutional federal agency) and the trigger-happy security guard.

Federal agents should have no more rights than local cops.. If that is the case, then only federal police should be called to arrest a local police officer. There should be immunity for cops to not arrest their own for violating federal laws, especially the same cop who may have saved their life and whose life they depend on in day to day work. To depend on the local police department to enforce federal laws, yet punish local law enforcement for violating them is ludicrous, in itself!

 

[Talos32]

You can accuse the IRS of many things, but being unconstitutional is not one of them. The 16th amendment, ratified in 1913, gives Congress the authority to levy an income tax on every individual. In fact, I would say the IRS is one of the few modern federal agencies that actually has a constitutional authority backing it.

 

[uberguy]

@Talos Man you're up the creek without a paddle.

It could easily have been handled discreetly - the deputy had a legitimate question - after being informed he wasn't to be armed, willingly turned to exit. It should have ended there, maybe even have the guard observe to insure he departs.

The overweight dweeb pulling his gun, then attempting to detain the deputy crossed the line. His firm and maybe taxpayers will have to pony up.

Your expressed views on this are laughably wrong.

 

[Talos32]

@Talos Man you're up the creek without a paddle.

It could easily have been handled discreetly - the deputy had a legitimate question - after being informed he wasn't to be armed, willingly turned to exit. It should have ended there, maybe even have the guard observe to insure he departs.

The overweight dweeb pulling his gun, then attempting to detain the deputy crossed the line. His firm and maybe taxpayers will have to pony up.

Your expressed views on this are laughably wrong.

Because he brought a gun on to federal property while not acting in the course of his duties he broke the law. I even posted the exact law he broke for you to read- punishable by up to a year in prison.

At that point he was not free to leave. And you know darn well know that you and I would not have been free to leave either- honest mistake or not. Just talk to the hundreds of people jammed up each year at TSA checkpoints with weapons in their carry-on. They get arrested and can sort it out with their attorney and the court officials.

Are you so in awe of cops/authority figures that you feel they should be free to choose which laws they obey, and leave if they don't feel like sticking around for their punishment? I feel that authority carries with it an inherent responsibility and if you hold a public office of any sort you should be held to the same or higher standards as everyone else.

I guess in your world some animals my are more equal than others. You do you man.

 

[nwslopoke]

Or, don't hate the player. Hate the game. He who manipulates the rules best usually wins. That's why the cop is playing scared.

 

[uberguy]

I guess in your world some animals my are more equal than others. You do you man.

In my world, there is such a thing as professional courtesy and understanding the context of circumstances. In regards to some subspecies ... well, you've pretty well established that.

Why don't you track the matter and get back to us on which side prevails. My money says the IRS and the firm settle for an undisclosed sum and the derp takes a plea to a lesser chg.

 

[Camelfilter]

When on duty, I carry in court all of the time when I am there on official business. When I went to renew my CPL the other day in the same building, I went in completely unarmed. Not so much as a set of fingernail clippers. I wasn't on official business and I don't do personal business on duty.

This may sound out of left field, but you NEVER know what someone's motivations are. You don't know who is dating who or what happened at home last night. You don't know that someone had to move out to get safe and the only place they can be found now is at work. When offering "courtesy", you may inadvertently allow someone to do something really ugly.

Good on ya, no personal business on duty.

I thought armed law enforcement folks don't need CHL's/CPL' etc & what not and what have you. That there credentialing are sufficient while off duty?

 

[Eric in Oregon]

I thought armed law enforcement folks don't need CHL's/CPL' etc & what not and what have you. That there credentialing are sufficient while off duty?

Reciprocity most likely. You have to be a cop for (IIRC) 15 years before the 50 state carry kicks in.

 

[No_Regerts]

Good on ya, no personal business on duty.

I thought armed law enforcement folks don't need CHL's/CPL' etc & what not and what have you. That there credentialing are sufficient while off duty?

When we were able to take a gun home on the same day, it made sense to have the CPL. Duty credentials didn't get you by. Now that the CPL doesn't get me same day guns, it makes less sense to renew.

 

[No_Regerts]

Reciprocity most likely. You have to be a cop for (IIRC) 15 years before the 50 state carry kicks in.

HR 218 is good to go once you're comissioned.

 

[4Freedom]

You can accuse the IRS of many things, but being unconstitutional is not one of them. The 16th amendment, ratified in 1913, gives Congress the authority to levy an income tax on every individual. In fact, I would say the IRS is one of the few modern federal agencies that actually has a constitutional authority backing it.

WE agree to disagree.. There is a difference between levying taxes on individuals and the government utilizing a bloated federal agency for imposing unscrupulous tax laws on its citizenry. The tax system is so bloated, manipulated and constructed in a way to extort money from hard working Americans, yet was suppose to be imposed to prevent that very practice.

The 16th Amendment in itself violates many other Constitution principles and should have never been allowed to be enacted without repealing other parts of our Constitution.

Glad to know that an Amendment made in 1913 makes stealing people's hard earned money respected as as constitutional value supported by our Founding Fathers who were strongly against the idea of forcefully levying large amount of income taxes from its citizens.

We did fight this thing called a Revolutionary War because of a government extorting outrageous taxes and abusing its power and authority against its citizens. But, I don't really think governments ever learn from the past, which is why we had a Constitution and Bill of Rights made, that was not suppose to be manipulated and bastardized as it is being done today.

Democrats use the 2nd AMendment, for example, to justify their means of gun control, claiming, gun ownership just applied to the military. Despite, the fact that history books, linguistic and constitutional scholars all have countered any such arguments. But, totalitarian politicians tend not to work in the favor of truth, liberty and justice.

Sorry , but the IRS has become out right criminal with the amount of money it extorts from American people and has done more to enrich the bureaucracy and than the hard working American. Americans, pay almost 40% in income taxes now. That is pure theft and when a government extorts such amounts from its subjects, the country deteriorates into tyranny or they could face revolt.

Some want an AMendment to the Constitution for Red Flag Laws, laws to protect the government from spying on its citizens, etc. If they pass such an Amendment without repealing others that forbid such laws to be enacted, it pretty much renders our Constitution useless. Our Constitution is pretty much a piece of decoration in this day and age to be honest and is hardly followed or respected by our government, anyhow. The government has built a much larger set of laws and principles that more or less circumvent your constitutional rights. Open carry a gun into a post office if you don't believe me and find out for yourself.

 

[Kruel J]

While sound would be nice, after watching it a few times the body language of the idiot was all I needed to see to not be surprised the Guard is being charged with a crime. The LEO is trying to leave, Barney has his gun out and is then trying to stop the LEO with gun in hand. This is a great way to have a disastrous accidental discharge. If the building was being guarded by Federal Cops I would hope you would not see this kind of show. If Barney told the LEO he could not carry and LEO told him to F off even, then call 911 and tell them some guy dressed as a Cop, is refusing to follow my authority. When guy dressed as a Cop is leaving? Let him go. It is amazing he did not touch off a round. It is also amazing to me that some want to defend Barney. The IRS needs to budget enough money to have off duty LEO's as guards there, or it they really insist on armed guards pay enough to have pro's. There are a LOT of places that hire LEO's who are retried or on days off for this who would not have done this.

This.

 

[Member 52301]

My husband picks up our paper tax forms for me at our local IRS and MT state tax building. I do our taxes the old fashioned way - paper forms.

You are not even allowed to have a gun locked up in your truck or car while in the parking lot. So locking it up does not work according to what the signs say for federal and state offices - same building or not. NO guns are allowed in their parking lot according to what the signs say.

And if you want to ASK A QUESTION it is not like the old days - no way. The guard will not let you beyond a specific area and you have to USE A TELEPHONE ON THE WALL to call, wait for them to answer, make your appointment to ASK a simple question from the IRS person who may or may not be IN that specific building. I don't know how it is in your area but it is LOCKED DOWN pretty tight.

Years ago, he could walk in with my estimated tax form and ES 1040 CHECK and pay it at a counter. NONE OF THIS JAIL TYPE TREATMENT to make a payment. So it goes in the mail now - certified and pray that the lousy mail service gets it there even if it is sent CERTIFIED!

One older guard answered my husband's questions because for a FREAKING MONTH - they did NOT have specific forms in including the older long form 1040 ones. PAST YEARS not the new forms. In some other years it was more than one month's wait for the books and forms! The new forms for last year took some time to get here too!

(AND THE IRS SAID THAT THEY ARE MAKING CHANGES AGAIN FOR THE FORMS AGAIN! IT WAS ALL OVER THE BUSINESS NEWS A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO!)

Or the IRS did not have other simple common forms. Businesses and individuals were complaining to their reps and senators, including me, because it was NO way to run a federal agency.

MT can be just as MESSED UP on their forms or LACK OF THEM too. YOU have to call the D of R for your MT forms now and it is a long distance call. NONE are in stock in the slots like the old way with books and forms. THEY DO NOT MAIL A BOOK TO YOU WITH THE FORMS NOW. So you call Helena, and a person has to PRINT IT ALL OUT FOR YOU page by page AND PAY POSTAGE IN ANOTHER ENVELOPE TO MAIL THIS TO EACH PERSON NOW if you want the paper forms and an instruction book! Such a stupid and expensive way to conduct the D of R now and I told them that too! The head man (D of R) is a man that my husband said was from this town. Go figure and maybe he is a long lost relative of the silly ! mayor! LOL

They (MT Department of Revenue and the FEDS-IRS) want people to do everything by computer now. So they make it harder for people who do not do their taxes that way!

I swear to God - they want OUR money but they can't do their freaking JOB on the federal and/or state levels! Like making it easier and a SIMPLE FAIR and/or FLAT TAX!

Another time, my husband asked another NEWER guard, younger man, a simple question if they could get the SLOTS FILLED UP WITH THE FEDERAL FORMS and the GUARD TOLD HIM THAT IT WAS NOT HIS JOB to ask an IRS employee and the IRS employee was X amount of FEET away from where they were standing!

So my husband said that the other older guard did that for him or told him what was going on with the LACK of forms aka ZERO FORMS being in the SLOTS for the taxpayers to pick up. So the younger man said that it was NOT his job again, he was not that other man and he had NO clue AND he would Not Ask when the slots would be filled up!

I KID YOU NOT and other OLDER and younger taxpayers HEARD this while my husband was standing there, a small crowd was gathering there and some OLDER PEOPLE came from OUT OF TOWN OVER AN HOUR AWAY - one way! My husband was asking questions NICELY and the small crowd was getting ticked off. My husband did NOT argue with the IRS guard man and he LET IT GO but going there every two days for FORMS and NOT getting any FREAKING FORMS really got old.

Now, if you ask a couple of questions and if you get an ODD GUARD - you might get RED FLAGGED in this day and age!

And waiting on the US MAIL for forms is a joke too. Reading long tax laws on a computer is a royal pain in the @@@ when you can LOOK AT A BOOK OR FORM but oh no - can't do that! That would make too much sense to make something EASY FOR THE TAXPAYER or to get someone to PICK UP A TELEPHONE while being on hold forever. People should not have to print crapola off for forms or books for the feds or for the state taxes!

THE SAME PEOPLE including me were on our MT reps and with the IRS reps on asking WHY the forms are not in the proper slots in the past and recently too. It was on our LOCAL NEWS and online too. Businesses and individuals were really ticked off.

Federal and state buildings should have LOCK BOXES for peace officers and for non peace officers aka OTHER PEOPLE but they will not do it for ordinary people.

And if the parking lot does NOT allow a GUN on their lot due to it being on federal or state or city land... oh well.

I don't like it but that is the law around here. I bet it is the law in most states when it comes to parking lots and not just their PROTECTED buildings.

Funny, how the .gov workers get all of this paid protection, LOCKED DOORS and glassed up barriers while they steal your money with tax laws that still favor some people over others and that includes big businesses that pay LITTLE OR ZERO TAXES WITH THEIR LOOP HOLES!

My older brother in MD is a retired federal worker who entered his profession after he got out of the Army. He did carry a tiny nail clipper but for a time frame he had a tiny pocket knife on him until they made that ILLEGAL. He always carried a tiny pocket knife since he was a kid and he said that he felt strange not having one.

There are some other stories about gun laws and/or gun accidents (?!?) where ordinary citizens got into trouble and state troopers got off for the same deal in Lucas County. One was a newer trooper where his kid shot himself (Dead!) and the trooper aka Ohio Highway Patrolman (Sylvania?) let his gun/guns LOOSE in an unlocked room IN HIS HOME. In another case, a kid shot himself and the ordinary citizen had the LAW aka book thrown at him.
So the new patrolman gets off with it being an UNFORTUNATE ACCIDENT (?!?) and the other man is in deep dung. BOTH CASES were in Lucas County, Ohio if my memory is good right now and the story is several months old.

I don't like the gun laws but I obey them. And I figure if they do not have LOCK UP BOXES, NO GUNS IN A LOCKED VEHICLE ANYWAY ON A STATE OR FEDERAL PARKING LOT so there goes the LOCKED UP BOX DEAL, where one person has to obey THE LAW as a non peace officer - the peace officer should have to obey the same laws IF he is OFF DUTY.

In my not so humble opinion, there should NOT be all of these STUPID and Unconstitutional gun laws but it is what IT is for now unless they ever get changed. I don't wait with baited breath for them to change though!

Things will get MUCH worse when it comes to gun laws and bans and if you complain - you might get RED flagged for your objection to them even on an online forum! God forbid, gun people should have a strong opinion on the Second Amendment!

Cate

 

[Member 52301]

PS:

The OP's original post came out of LUCAS COUNTY, OHIO. Interesting.

The NEW on the job Ohio state highway patrolman who left his duty gun and/or other guns LOOSE IN HIS HOME in an unlocked room where his kid found a gun and shot himself is out of Lucas County, Ohio. NOTHING happened to the patrolman even though his kid ended up dead. That would be bad enough... having a dead child.

Yet, in one or more other cases, ordinary citizens got (Or get!) into big trouble when a child ended up WOUNDED or DEAD due to leaving a gun or guns around in the SAME COUNTY.

You could hardly find ANY FOLLOW UP STORIES about the patrolman for a time frame. You had to hunt for them or follow them. Yet, the other stories were out there for the same type of situation with a non peace officer person.

There were some letters posted to some of these stories that ended up in a few newspapers, back there, and on some online forums a few months ago.

Cate

 

[Boboclown]

Seems a little thin skinned from someone who works in a job where they regularly point guns at people.

While the reaction by the guard was extreme, even I know weapons are not allowed on Federal property- it's well posted outside. As he was not there on official business, that rule would apply equally to Gaston.



So he was committing a federal offense that comes with a fine and one year in prison. And then resisted arrest when the guard tried to detain him. It ultimately went his way because he's a cop and professional courtesy, yadda yadda. He was still breaking the law. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The law only applies to serfs not the lords and their enforcement obviously.

 

[Wombat of Doom]

I wouldn't expect a uniformed deputy to ever be disarmed outside of a courthouse or jail...

They have to disarm for the psych ward too. (Denying entry to armed cops is a part of my job that they do not like. FWIW, we have safes for cops.) Believe me, it is for the best. Thankfully most of the LE locally are aware.

 

[Lazyfaire]

I have carried a pocketknife on my belt or pocket for most of the past 40 years. My grandfather carried one, my Dad carried one as did I, mostly for work. But like my watch I feel a bit naked without it. Went into the local Social Security office and left my gun in the car safe. Sitting and talking with the guy at the counter the guard came up behind me and began to belligerently berate me about the 3" folder in a belt case. Actually stood there with his hand on his pistol! Since I was finished anyway I just stood up to leave. He just glared at me like I was an ordinary citizen (a POS to him).

As if a SS office isn't already a depressing place to go and spend 2+ hours in!!!

 

[The Heretic]

On both sides of the confrontation it seems like maybe a bit of their power has gone to their heads.

I have seen this before in LEOs and "ordinary citizens"; they get a little bit of power over someone and given the chance they just have to lord it over them. Get two of them in together, with both of them thinking they have "authority" over the other and they often butt heads, things escalate until one backs down - or not.

Seems like this particular situation is still playing out.