Delayed don't want it anymore

[madman48]

Did I tell you guy how in Idaho if you have a carry permit you fill the paper out buy the gun and walk out with it?
No call?

With no background check?

 

[madman48]

If you had come into my shop, agreed to a deal, ran the check, and decided to back out, I would ask for a restocking fee. Sorry, but that is inventory that was stuck for me. I couldn't sell it and recoup my money. If it was a normal stock item, it would be a pretty small fee. If it was a special order (you would have pre-paid), then there would be a significant fee.

Small mom and pop businesses aren't making a killing. And backing out on a deal can be huge. I had someone do this to me on about $1000 worth of guns. It screwed my month up. Small businesses aren't always able to absorb the whims of people mind changes. So saying that they don't deserve consideration is ignorant.

If it's not paid for, it's not a sale. If it was me, no money exchanged hands, I have no receipt, I just call them up and tell them thanks but no thanks. And no one would be able to talk me into paying a damn thing.

 

[lepcur]

I guess I'm kinda old school, if I tell some1 I'm going to buy it and he ordered it for me I would go through with the deal, I'm a man of my word and that is how I was raised.. I've been this way all of my 60 years...

 

[Datenshi]

I guess I'm kinda old school, if I tell some1 I'm going to buy it and he ordered it for me I would go through with the deal, I'm a man of my word and that is how I was raised.. I've been this way all of my 60 years...

That's different. That's a special order. And if the dealer is thinking at all...they would require a deposit on such. I agree, if I special order something I follow through on it.

 

[MountainBear]

If it's not paid for, it's not a sale. If it was me, no money exchanged hands, I have no receipt, I just call them up and tell them thanks but no thanks. And no one would be able to talk me into paying a damn thing.

In which case from that point on, you would either pay up front or we wouldn't do business. Small shops don't always have the luxury of tolerating indecisive customers.

Case in point. I had a customer come in and agree to buy two guns I had on my shelf. We did the paperwork and he was delayed. Those guns then went into storage until the delay was concluded. I couldn't order more without the funds from their sale. I was a very small shop. After roughly 36 days, the customer was finally approved. After several attempts to call and a week plus of waiting, the customer finally called me to say he had gone to Fred Meyers and his check had gone through there, so he bought them there a few weeks prior. No call to me, nothing. So after all that, I lost almost two months of potential sales and the customer flaked. Sure the guns were able to go back out, so I wasn't out any real numbers, but how many sales could I have made in the meantime? It may not seem like much, but when you are small, every little sale helped.

People bubblegum and moan about the big boxing of America. They bemoan the loss of little groceries, hardware stores, and even gun shops. But if people simply put their money where their mouth was and shopped local, they could reverse the trend. But they don't. Frankly most people would drive 50 miles to save 5$ at a big box store without thought one on the consequence for the local business. I'm guilty of it myself. But comments like this show a complete ignorance or disregard for the struggles of small businesses.

 

[lepcur]

In which case from that point on, you would either pay up front or we wouldn't do business. Small shops don't always have the luxury of tolerating indecisive customers.

Case in point. I had a customer come in and agree to buy two guns I had on my shelf. We did the paperwork and he was delayed. Those guns then went into storage until the delay was concluded. I couldn't order more without the funds from their sale. I was a very small shop. After roughly 36 days, the customer was finally approved. After several attempts to call and a week plus of waiting, the customer finally called me to say he had gone to Fred Meyers and his check had gone through there, so he bought them there a few weeks prior. No call to me, nothing. So after all that, I lost almost two months of potential sales and the customer flaked. Sure the guns were able to go back out, so I wasn't out any real numbers, but how many sales could I have made in the meantime? It may not seem like much, but when you are small, every little sale helped.

People bubblegum and moan about the big boxing of America. They bemoan the loss of little groceries, hardware stores, and even gun shops. But if people simply put their money where their mouth was and shopped local, they could reverse the trend. But they don't. Frankly most people would drive 50 miles to save 5$ at a big box store without thought one on the consequence for the local business. I'm guilty of it myself. But comments like this show a complete ignorance or disregard for the struggles of small businesses.

I always try to buy local 1st. If it's a few bucks higher or available this is what I prefer to do..

 

[mjbskwim]

With no background check?

I had a background check when I got my carry permit.
It COULD work that way in every state
If they were free states

 

[BigStick]

To me, it would depend on several factors. If it is a big box store, I would have no qualms canceling a transaction if they aren't willing to sell after it is legal.

If it is a small shop, I would talk to them first and discuss options. And if you had paid already it gets more complicated. But when Big 5 told my buddy it was legal to sell to him, but their policy said they couldn't, I told him to walk away and tell them their rediculous policy just cost the $1000.

 

[Hawaiian]

A big box store, I don't care too much. But a small business, I do care.
If the business only follows the letter of the law and releases the firearm after three days, they are leaving themselves open for a world of hurt.
The buyer shoots someone with the gun the next day. The shop will be sued by the victims family. Even if they prevail in court as they followed the law, they will have spent a small fortune in legal fees. And even if their insurance company paid the legal fees, their policy would probably get canceled. When they apply for new insurance, a question on the application is "have you ever been canceled". Any small business dealer who releases the firearm without an approval is not thinking too clearly. I would not if I was a FFL.

 

[brianb]

In which case from that point on, you would either pay up front or we wouldn't do business. Small shops don't always have the luxury of tolerating indecisive customers.

Case in point. I had a customer come in and agree to buy two guns I had on my shelf. We did the paperwork and he was delayed. Those guns then went into storage until the delay was concluded. I couldn't order more without the funds from their sale.

indecisive customers ??

You know, I sympathize with you, but YOU are the one stuck because you didn't follow the allowable action under both Federal and Oregon law. As of about 1+1/2 yrs ago, Oregon law (cite not on the top of my head), mirrored the exact wording of Federal law - which says that if delayed, the FFL can release the firearm for sale after a proscribed wait of (5) days unless they specifically notify you it's denied - as others here have already mentioned. The fact that you (and others), as a business, want to "play it safe" (? with ATF?) and NOT complete the transaction when it's perfectly legal to do so, is, in my humble opinion, ON YOU. Sure, ask for a deposit. You didn't. Money didn't change hands. Product didn't change hands. Heck, OSP (or the Feds) haven't decided it's even legal for the buyer to own/possess (in the strictest sense), - there hasn't been a transaction. I'd agree that common courtesy would suggest that the customer follow through, or, at the least, give you the chance and communicate with you if he wants to alter the sale (and yeah, he'd be a butt-head to treat you like he did), but YOU didn't sell to him when it was perfectly legal to do so.

As for the cost of the background check; is a charge made by OSP if the customer fails the check? It was my understanding NOT.

I was a cop for 23 yrs when I was "delayed" on a gun purchase for unknown reasons. I'd been carrying, first by CCW, then by state statute as LE for more then 30 years. OSP decided that a nebulous entry in my CCH 40+ years ago required a delay and a hand check at an obscure courthouse. The dealer I was purchasing from knew me WELL - I'd even worked at his shop. When the delay came, he was too scared of ATF's "attention" to "buck them", as he saw it, by completing the sale. My delayed transaction left a very bad taste in my mouth towards my friend/dealer. He told me, at the time, he couldn't sell it to me, which I found out was not correct - either a mistake by him, or a lie. I've come to find this was not an uncommon practice, but it flies in the face of the law, and really fosters ill-will between customers and dealers.

Whether gun shops are caving by fear, or by ignorance, they're not doing their customers and the 2A any favors.

On another note, I had "words" with OSP's background unit. They told me that the info they finally got which cleared my status would be kept in a database separate from LEDS (like they couldn't addend it?), and this "separate" database has it's data scrubbed 4 years after entry. I said, "you mean in four+ years I might have to go through this again?" to which he said, "uh...<long silence> yeah, I guess that's probably what's going to happen". All this because Oregon wants the $10 revenue and control of the BGC process, which costs them more than $10 per transaction. Sheesh.

On the bright side - I figure that if I purchase at least one gun every 4 years, I can keep the "OK" flag on me alive. That's what I tell the wife anyway.

 

[MountainBear]

You know, I sympathize with you, but YOU are the one stuck because you didn't follow the allowable action under both Federal and Oregon law. As of about 1+1/2 yrs ago, Oregon law (cite not on the top of my head), mirrored the exact wording of Federal law - which says that if delayed, the FFL can release the firearm for sale after a proscribed wait of (5) days unless they specifically notify you it's denied - as others here have already mentioned. The fact that you (and others), as a business, want to "play it safe" (? with ATF?) and NOT complete the transaction when it's perfectly legal to do so, is, in my humble opinion, ON YOU. Sure, ask for a deposit. You didn't. Money didn't change hands. Product didn't change hands. Heck, OSP (or the Feds) haven't decided it's even legal for the buyer to own/possess (in the strictest sense), - there hasn't been a transaction. I'd agree that common courtesy would suggest that the customer follow through, or, at the least, give you the chance and communicate with you if he wants to alter the sale (and yeah, he'd be a butt-head to treat you like he did), but YOU didn't sell to him when it was perfectly legal to do so.

As a former police officer, I am sure you are familiar with the concept of just because something is legal doesn't make it right or even smart. When it is your business, your livelihood, and your family's future on the line, I wonder if you'd be as quick to condemn.

Just like when you were a police officer who had every right to go home at the end of your shift, and you worked to make sure that happened, I conducted my business in such a way that I did not put my family's future at risk. Sorry, but there were no customers, up to and including friends and family, worth jeopardizing my family for.

 

[brianb]

>> the concept of just because something is legal doesn't make it right or even smart.

First, I'm still waiting for a good reason you (and others) aren't completing the sale during the extended delay when it's legal at both the State and Fed level to do so. Sure, throw in a dash of "I don't trust the customer" and we'll call that good. But where's your downside? Getting the money from the transaction?

Secondly, and bottom line - it's still on you as the owner. I seriously doubt your shop folded because of this one guy, or even because of these types of delays. It should've been a learning experience.

>> legal doesn't make it right or even smart

That's your right and it's all well and good, up to the point where you're keeping me from my rights, money, or goods. Then it becomes a business choice.

>>When it is your business, your livelihood, and your family's future on the line, I wonder if you'd be as quick to condemn.

Where's the condemnation? I just said you were looking at it wrong. But now I'm saying that you had a learning opportunity. In this particular case - what did you learn from it? "The customer screwed me" ?? You know, 90% of customers that don't come back also don't tell you WHY they're not coming back.

"right to go home at the end of the day"... Really? how about we cut the hyperbole BS?

The thing that irks me, is that dealers won't follow the law to complete the transaction when it's legal to do so. By holding back on the transaction, dealers are becoming a hindrance to 2A rights and an extension (let's call it a "cog") of ATF infringement.

ORS 166.412 (3) (c) If the department fails to provide a unique approval number to a gun dealer or to notify the gun dealer that the purchaser is disqualified under paragraph (a) of this subsection before the close of the gun dealer's next business day following the request by the dealer for a criminal history record check, the dealer may deliver the handgun to the purchaser.​

and from the Fed

A NICS Delay

If the FFL has not received a final determination from the NICS after three business days have elapsed since the delay response, it is within the FFL's discretion whether or not to transfer the firearm (if state law permits the transfer). If the FFL transfers the firearm, the FFL must check "no resolution was provided within three business days" on line 21d of the ATF Form 4473.​

 

[Mikej]

On another note, I had "words" with OSP's background unit. They told me that the info they finally got which cleared my status would be kept in a database separate from LEDS (like they couldn't addend it?), and this "separate" database has it's data scrubbed 4 years after entry. I said, "you mean in four+ years I might have to go through this again?" to which he said, "uh...<long silence> yeah, I guess that's probably what's going to happen".

On the bright side - I figure that if I purchase at least one gun every 4 years, I can keep the "OK" flag on me alive. That's what I tell the wife anyway.

Ah, NO! From Wifey's actual experience... It comes back, was five years for Wifey, no matter what you purchase! Unless they've changed it in the last year. Feasibly, you could buy a gun one day with no probs, and the next day could be "THE" day the "Nebulous Entry" from 40+ years ago magically come to life! For reals. Wifey's was 30+ years previous BTW.

 

[jbett98]

It's 4 years, 8 months and then your firearm records are deleted.
So if you were delayed for a month and were cleared today, expect to go through another delay if you try to buy a firearm 1,700 days from now.
I just spent $225.00 to personally expunge my 1980 class B misdemeanor in Utah and it was worth every penny.
Just call OSP and asked them what's the problem and then fix it.

 

[Mikej]

It's 4 years, 8 months and then your firearm records are deleted.
So if you were delayed for a month and were cleared today, expect to go through another delay if you try to buy a firearm 1,700 days from now.
I just spent $225.00 to personally expunge my 1980 class B misdemeanor in Utah and it was worth every penny.
Just call OSP and asked them what's the problem and then fix it.

Yabbut...Come 4-5 years or so you're going to be all tense getting the BGC to buy that gun aren't you?

 

[jbett98]

My 1980 record was sealed by a judge. The FBI has cleared my record and I don't have anything on the books that would delay a BGC.

 

[U8395279]

If you had come into my shop, agreed to a deal, ran the check, and decided to back out, I would ask for a restocking fee. Sorry, but that is inventory that was stuck for me. I couldn't sell it and recoup my money. If it was a normal stock item, it would be a pretty small fee. If it was a special order (you would have pre-paid), then there would be a significant fee.

I do not understand your argument here at all.

In this case the OP says that no money has changed hands. And that the gun was never transferred to him. Clearly, he has never owned it.

So how on earth can one consider that the firearm has been sold, and must now be considered to be used merchandise?? That makes no logical or legal sense to me.

.

 

[MountainBear]

I never said it would be used merchandise. But here was my circumstance. The buyer agreed to buy the guns. The BGC was conducted, and although it was delayed, it was eventually completed. I then have to call to cancel the sale or check the items back in to my books. They are still new items, but they have been locked up for the entire delay, and have been useless in terms of making money to support the shop.

As for the comments saying that dealers are anti-2nd amendment for not completing transfers after the allowable three days, I would say that unless you've owned a shop and had that choice, then you don't really have much idea. Hypothetical situations only get us so far.

I'm under no illusion that this one situation doomed my shop and I'm under no illusion that I was a good businessman. My business, despite my best efforts, was not successful. I own that and all that entails.

I kind of feel like I'm smacking my head into a wall over and over as I repeatedly explain this. Pretty sure I've had enough.

If any of you honestly think I'm anti-2nd amendment, because of my choices with my business or for any other reason, then you have no clue and there's likely nothing I can do about that.

 

[Flopsweat]

I never said it would be used merchandise. But here was my circumstance. The buyer agreed to buy the guns. The BGC was conducted, and although it was delayed, it was eventually completed. I then have to call to cancel the sale or check the items back in to my books. They are still new items, but they have been locked up for the entire delay, and have been useless in terms of making money to support the shop.

As for the comments saying that dealers are anti-2nd amendment for not completing transfers after the allowable three days, I would say that unless you've owned a shop and had that choice, then you don't really have much idea. Hypothetical situations only get us so far.

I'm under no illusion that this one situation doomed my shop and I'm under no illusion that I was a good businessman. My business, despite my best efforts, was not successful. I own that and all that entails.

I kind of feel like I'm smacking my head into a wall over and over as I repeatedly explain this. Pretty sure I've had enough.

If any of you honestly think I'm anti-2nd amendment, because of my choices with my business or for any other reason, then you have no clue and there's likely nothing I can do about that.

I get the impression that many of them don't grok the concept of Working Capital. You only have so much money to buy guns to sell. If a gun is waiting on a BGC it can't be sold because the serial number is attached to the BGC. Had the gun not been in the back room it might have sold, the money been reinvested in another gun, that gun sold, etc. This is permanently lost profit. There is a chance that taking a loss will encourage future sales, but finding a balance between goodwill and profit can be a tricky and frustrating exercise. How a person chooses to strike that balance is not any sort of indicator of their appreciation of the 2nd amendment.

 

[JackFrost]

In which case from that point on, you would either pay up front or we wouldn't do business. Small shops don't always have the luxury of tolerating indecisive customers.

Case in point. I had a customer come in and agree to buy two guns I had on my shelf. We did the paperwork and he was delayed. Those guns then went into storage until the delay was concluded. I couldn't order more without the funds from their sale. I was a very small shop. After roughly 36 days, the customer was finally approved. After several attempts to call and a week plus of waiting, the customer finally called me to say he had gone to Fred Meyers and his check had gone through there, so he bought them there a few weeks prior. No call to me, nothing. So after all that, I lost almost two months of potential sales and the customer flaked. Sure the guns were able to go back out, so I wasn't out any real numbers, but how many sales could I have made in the meantime? It may not seem like much, but when you are small, every little sale helped.

People bubblegum and moan about the big boxing of America. They bemoan the loss of little groceries, hardware stores, and even gun shops. But if people simply put their money where their mouth was and shopped local, they could reverse the trend. But they don't. Frankly most people would drive 50 miles to save 5$ at a big box store without thought one on the consequence for the local business. I'm guilty of it myself. But comments like this show a complete ignorance or disregard for the struggles of small businesses.

As a small business owner(industrial/machining tooling and shop supplies) I understand all too well the "indecisive customer" not sure exactly what they want/need, need help with tool application etc etc. Which is fine, that is part of the business and we are happy to do it but when you spend up to and hour with the customer, walk them through what they want/need then get the item ordered and after it is ordered, shipped, delivered(to our shop) and invoiced then the customer says, I changed my mind or that's not what I really wanted or any other number of reasons I have heard over the years, it is a PITA to deal with. You as the business owner are out that time spent helping them when there are a million other that still need to be done, now you have to contact the vendor and inform them of the return, 9/10 companies charge a restocking fee and obviously a freight charge to return the item and most of the time when you inform the customer of this they get all bent out of shape and say they should have just ordered it themselves. Then why did you come to me not knowing what the hell you needed?? My business is the classic "Mom and Pop" shop, just me and my wife. Every time this scenario occurs it is so frustrating to deal with knowing the whole time that unless you have been in business for yourself you have no idea that hassle you just created for the business owner.
And to all the people who say "why don't you just put it on the shelf for someone else to buy"? It's not that simple, when you are out the money and waiting on that money to come back in to replace what you paid it can take weeks or even months. I am extremely thankful for my customer base and 99.7% are awesome and loyal as heck but there will always be that one or two that throw a wrench in your bottom line!