Defensive Rifle Ammo

[Camelfilter]

"One" cannot ever prove that handloads followed any book. If you're being prosecuted they're certainly not going to allow evidence that was literally created by you the defendant. This has been a problem for defenders in more than one case so why risk it?

THE PROBLEM WITH HANDLOADS FOR DEFENSE |

Putting it out there for the people who can consider it objectively. As Ayoob says, people told this usually "react as if you had told them they had ugly babies".

Yah, but this discussion is over rifle use...

Again, far away from handgun defensive use. Litigiously speaking.

 

[johnboy]

The jury may think you are a crazed gun nut who makes their own bullets. Lawyers can create images in the minds of the jury even if the Judge says "disregard those comments" Lawyers all know that and most do it......

 

[ferret427]

I an not a lawyer, do not play one on TV, and I did not stay at a Holiday Inn last night.

That being said, I have never heard or read an account where the loads used or ammunition type used in a DGU were a factor in someone being charged, convicted or had a self defense claim being overturned. I would imagine that if such an event were to occur, word would have spread like wildfire within the firearms community (if anyone has info to the contrary, please share).

I believe a lot of the speculation concerning reloading, mixing ammunition and similar scenarios and possible legal vulnerabilities when such practices are present in a DGU stem from ideas written about by Massad Ayoob and others when writing about having all your bases covered after a DGU. Their thoughts are not without merit and should be considered when formulating your personal threat assessment.

When it comes down to what type of ammunition is best for defensive use of a firearm, my inexpert opinion is as follows:

1. Be able to immediately access a firearm and ammunition you have used and are familiar with as to function and performance.
2. Have a come to Jesus moment and understand that there is no such thing as the perfect firearm or ammunition for all things.
3. Handguns are weak, but they are convenient.
Determine if your personal threat assessment is primarily concerned with average aggressors at close distances, or needing barrier penetration and/or ranged capability.
4. Ignoring gear, tactics, situational awareness and all of the other stuff, when you shoot, shot placement and shooting until the threat is no longer a threat is key!

As for ammunition, if you reload you can make whatever you want. If you are using commercial ammunition, there are a couple of things to consider. Often cheap range ammo are loaded to produce pressures not as high as defensive ammunition. While nice for a day at the range, as well as reduced recoil, it might not offer the most velocity a given cartridge is capable of producing.

When it comes to projectiles, for most handgun rounds the optimum choice can be dependent on application. Monolithic solids and FMJ bullets can offer more velocity retention, less physical deformation and overall integrity when passing through a barrier compared to expanding bullets. Expanding bullets offer somewhat larger wound channels and more efficient energy transfer to the target.

All of this windbag crap I just typed out on my tiny phone boils down to have a loaded gun, know how and when to use it.

As an aside, for defensive rifle ammo goes, use what hunters use ( similar to how defensive edges have serrated blades in that they are more efficient in causing tissue trauma like your steak knife for your rib-eye dinner). It is designed to be efficient at stopping targets with more emphasis given to that than making cloverleafs at the range. Handgun ammo is kind of a grey area, where due to the lower kinetic energy involved makes the distinction less. In a personal defensive scenario your ability to identify a target, engage that target, and land hits on that target are bigger factors than your ammo choice.

 

[awshoot]

I still think this whole argument is spurious. ... If the only ammo you can afford is reloaded ammo or handloaded ... and proving they duplicate the original US military loads should be good enough ...

Proving this or proving that -- every extra thing you have to argue costs extra (thousands extra). If you win great, but that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt you.

I reload practice rounds for my carry gun. Instead of loading practice ammo for maximum accuracy (my usual practice), I load them so they shoot in the same pattern as the commercial ammo I carry (hit at the same target region with the same amount of spread). This gives cost savings of reloading when I am out at the range practicing, and I ingrain the way the carry ammo shoots, but it subtracts a potentially costly issue should I ever have to use my carry ammo. The difference in cost between using all reloads and reloads made to match commercial ammo for practice plus some commercial ammo to carry, is about two or three boxes of commercial ammo (you'll need one box for the pattern testing) -- certainly worth it to avoid even a theoretical risk.

 

[awshoot]

"One" cannot ever prove that handloads followed any book. If you're being prosecuted they're certainly not going to allow evidence that was literally created by you the defendant. This has been a problem for defenders in more than one case so why risk it?

THE PROBLEM WITH HANDLOADS FOR DEFENSE |

Putting it out there for the people who can consider it objectively. As Ayoob says, people told this usually "react as if you had told them they had ugly babies".

From the link above, this article in particular addresses the arguments always seen in these threads (from "good shoot" to "show me a case"): THE PECULIAR PROBLEM OF HANDLOADS IN SELF-DEFENSE SHOOTINGS:

 

[awshoot]

Yah, but this discussion is over rifle use...

Again, far away from handgun defensive use. Litigiously speaking.

The discussion is about gun shot residue evidence. In almost any instance in which you are using a rifle in a SD situation, it will be at close range, probably in your house, because otherwise it isn't a SD situation to begin with. Using a rifle or a pistol at close range for SD purposes, is a distinction without a difference.

 

[dcfranzen]

Simple, call your Cty SO and ask to speak with the Range Master; then, ask what they're using in their rifles.

 

[Partsproduction]

It sounds similar to meteorite insurance, odds are VERY long against getting hit by one but man, if you are, you'll regret not getting it. I still think it is, "Much ado about nothing".

 

[titsonritz]

Speer Gold Dot 64gr

Do you know if 62gr replaced the 64gr? I see a box here and there of the 64gr but no cases, I see the 62gr all over the place.

 

[titsonritz]

If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can stabilize them (minimum 1:9 twist rate):

• Hornady 75gr OTM loads
• Nosler 77gr OTM loads
• Sierra 77gr SMK loads

If barrier penetration is NOT an important factor AND your rifle can't stabilize the heavy 70+ grain bullets:

• Sierra 69gr SMK loads
• Hornady 68gr OTM loads
• Winchester 64gr JSP (RA223R2)
• Federal 64gr TRU (223L)
• Hornady 60gr JSP

If your rifle is 1:12 or slower twist rate or can only shoot lighter-weight bullets:

• 55gr Federal bonded JSP load (LE223T1 or P223T2)
• Barnes 55gr TSX/TAC-X
• 50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*

If barrier penetration IS an important factor:

• 62gr Federal Trophy Bonded Bear Claw (TBBC) bonded JSP (XM556FBIT3)*
• 64gr Winchester solid base bonded JSP (Q3313/RA556B)*
• 50gr TSX loaded by Black Hills*
• Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (5.56)*
• Federal 62gr Mk318 Mod0 (T556TNB1)*
• 62gr Federal bonded JSP Tactical (LE223T3)
• 55gr Federal bonded JSP load (Tactical––LE223T1 or identical Premium Rifle––P223T2)
• Swift 75gr Scirocco (usually requires 1:7 twist)
• 60gr Nosler Partition JSP
• Remington 62gr bonded JSP
• Federal 55gr TSX (T223S)
• Speer 55 & 64gr Gold Dot JSP (.223)
• Federal 62gr Fusion JSP (Same construction as the Gold Dot)

Loads marked with * are 5.56 loads and indicate preferred loadings

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

 

[BrandonQuixote]

Ammo selection is never brought up in court by prosecutors. This is something perpetuated by gun-store knitting circles.

If you're trying to shoot through the walls of your concrete castle, better have something that's barrier blind and with enough sectional density.
If you've got plebeian walls, well then something that expands or frags quickly and easily.

 

[titsonritz]

Ammo selection is never brought up in court by prosecutors. This is something perpetuated by gun-store knitting circles.

If youre trying to shoot through the walls of your concrete castle, better have something thats barrier blind and with enough sectional density.
If you've got plebeian walls, well then something that expands or frags quickly and easily.

If that is the only merit of the prosecution's case and he wins, someone had a crap attorney.

It's going to boil to...
Did shooter intentionally shoot dead guy?
Did dead guy need shooting?
Geographical location.