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Doesn't look like something I would wear very long
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Debating on open carry
- Thread Starter Blowgunner
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He posted up shortly after it occurred, some fast food food chain. He's in Eugene though, so the deuchnoodles (...err I mean snowflakes...) are a weee bit out of hand down there, which would almost be fine if the metheadbobs weren't equally (or moreso) out of hand.
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I open carried in Prescott, back in the late 1960's and early 1970's before it was "Cool", Oh did I forget to mention I was in uniform and wore a badge. While walking the beat down town around the court house square and visiting Matt's or The Palace , not to mention theTivoli club. I was always aware how vulnerable my side arm was and so always kept my arm over it when going through those places where some of the really "Tough" guys hung out. A civilian carrying open these days is just advertising how dumb he is!
Please don't, you paint a great big bull's eye on your chest and back by doing so!
Sign me an OLD ex cop.
Gabby
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Is your head on a swivel all the time you are in public watching for that possible bad guy who would want to take your gun.
I don't think so, so your stance is bunk!
I'm that bad guy carrying concealed and I walk up to you and say nice gun, then I draw and say hand it over, What are you going to do now Rambo? You are going to hand it over then go home and change your shorts and your pants. That's what you will do after some dude sticks HIS gun in your guts.
Situational awareness my butt!
Gabby
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Bill, that's not me in the picture.
I found those pictures on this website: Received my shoulder holster today... - TexasCHLforum.com
If you get a setup like that, let me know how you like it. I might want to give it a try, too.
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Lmao, yes actually my head is.
I choose to position myself with a corner or solid surface behind me constantly. Even as a single guy, the women I take out at first arent used to it, but they understand and appreciate it. When you practice situational awareness and position yourself appropriately over time it comes naturally.
Im 6'6 and an active 350lbs, I look around often. Ive had enough would-be fighters come up to me looking to fight the big guy.. After a while you know what to look for. You dont obviously dont know me. The guys who allow themselves to be robbed or attacked walk around without a care in the world thinking their firearm is enough to thwart off a threat.. I actually practice what I preach.
By all means, walk up to me on the street and try to rob me, I dare you. If my draw doesnt get you, my fists will. You may not have experiences with fights but I sure do. Be less trigged sweetheart, its just a forum.
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In general, I agree with most of what I've heard so far, summarized as "in the woods, go ahead... probably best to avoid OC in more populated areas, both to cause less problems for yourself, as well as CC being better to not give yourself away as a primary target to BGs," and to that, I'd add, that if you do OC in more populated areas, then IF you get called out by someone with a concern, try to defuse the situation instead of going on a rant about your rights and consider just walking away if simple defusing speech doesn't immediately help. It might be more "worth it to the cause of gun rights" to just show people that you're NOT trying to cause problem, and your gun doesn't give you any special staying power in an argument... You can be the bigger person and just walk away. Hopefully the take away would be "wow, I confronted the gun owner, and he wasn't the cocky jerk I expected... he just left. Maybe they're not all crazy." I know there is also the risk that the other possible take away is "I'm in charge and those crazy gun guys HAVE to leave when I ask them (which is only really true if asked by the property owner, or risk trespassing charges)," so there is that risk, but I don't think that the guys who act like jerks and go on big rants, and cause more problems when the cops arrive, really do much to help perceptions from "the other side." Just thinking out loud here, and may have to give this more thought, but that's my initial leaning... Win people over with love and kindness at first, when possible.
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I found this in the discussion about shoulder rigs over at TexasCHL. Kinda long, but good information.
"At various times in my law enforcement career I used several types of both vertical and horizontal shoulder holsters, as well as a type that attached to the straps of my ballistic vest. Over time I came to use them almost exclusively for backup gun carry more often than for the primary weapon.
In my post retirement status I rarely use this carry method any longer, although I do keep a shoulder rig that I can't bring myself to part with in one of my holster bins. (Yes, that's "bins" as in plural - I'm probably the poster child for the never ending search for the perfect holster).
My preference for strong side belt holsters is a long considered personal choice and I wouldn't criticize anyone's decision to go with a shoulder rig for any one of a number of good reasons. The back problem cited by TAM is most certainly one of those, and your own preference for this carry method combined with your very well thought out system of gun, holster, wife tailored custom concealment methods and draw stroke makes it an excellent option for you. Guys of your size are also have a lot going for them if things get physical and can more successfully manage some of the issues I called attention to through a level of raw physical power that is not in the repertoire for many of the rest of us.
The caveats I raised come largely from experiences I had running training and qualification operations for 200 officers. Some plainclothes officers and detectives preferred shoulder holsters for either comfort (20%) or the CDI (chicks dig it) factor (80%). My agency allowed shoulder holsters when I took over the training division, and, after observing a number of nearly (my) heart-stopping situations involving the truly scary things people will do with them when put under a little stress during training exercises, I wrote and secured approval for a holster policy that did not allow them to be used in training or carried on duty.
I made that call not because they are inherently unsafe, but because I didn't have the resources to create and carry out a good separate training curriculum for this very different method of carry, and allowing officers to use them without the same level of training we provided for strong side belt holsters was an officer safety and liability disaster waiting to happen.
In my original post on this thread, it looks like I might not have been clear enough on some of the issues I tried to call attention to with the result that I appeared to be restating the obvious instead of contributing anything useful, so here's a follow up attempt at a bit of clarification:
1. In a strong side waistband holster, the gun is typically further away from a potential assailant than a gun carried in a shoulder holster when the shooter is in the natural stance (strong side foot somewhat to the rear of the support side foot) that most people instinctively use. If an attacker lunges from the front (as he may in a strongarm robbery attempt, and surely will if he sees your strong arm go under your coat to a bulge on your weak side), the natural reaction is to step back deeply with the strong side foot.
This places a gun holstered on the strong side in a position further away from the adversary, and is naturally defended by clamping the strong side arm close against the body during the draw stroke while fending off the adversary with the support hand.
When this same stepping back motion is executed by the wearer of a shoulder holster, his gun side moves very little in relation to his assailant. If he has not already drawn at this point (which he may not if he did not perceive a deadly threat before the lunge), he will find it very difficult to do so until he can somehow break contact and create enough distance to work with. Until he does so, both his gun and his body crossing gun arm remain highly vulnerable to the adversary. This is an important difference to know about.
The support hand can be used to help defend against a frontal assault with either carry method, but in my experience it is much harder to keep the attacker away from the gun, draw it successfully, and engage with it from a shoulder holster than with a strong side waistband carry method. A few experiments with a nongun or an Airsoft pistol and a friend willing to put some gusto into playing the aggressor role will readily illustrate the dynamics involved here.
2. With a shoulder holster, the butt of your firearm carried on your weak side is in a perfect position to be drawn by someone facing you at close range from the front if he suspects it's there and your covering garment is open to the front. How does he know it's there? A gust of wind, a turn of the body that exposed a bit of leather or gun, a telltale bulge that would be out of place for anything else, or a "wardrobe malfunction" during a physical struggle. In fact, from a mechanical standpoint, he can draw it faster and more powerfully than you can because he does not have to put an arm across his body to execute the movement and his straight in / straight out move is very difficult to block.
Knowing about little gotchas like this can keep one from the unhappy circumstance of learning this one the hard way in the field.
At this point you'd be right to remind me that you're not s'posed to let somebody get that close, but life is full of surprises. Despite our best efforts, occasionally we help some of them along by our own mistakes, which we made up our minds we'd never make, but then make anyway sometimes when our guard is down. I'm still working on that perfection thing, but haven't mastered it yet.
3. The unmistakable movement needed to access a shoulder holster while standing is second only to that required to draw from an ankle holster for telegraphing what's happening, and it's very vulnerable to a blocking movement. (Try it with a friend if you don't believe me). As you correctly pointed out, the initial motion for drawing a gun holstered at the waist on the strong side is very similar to that required to withdraw a wallet as would be natural for a compliant victim in a robbery. This delays the bad buy's moment of recognition that things are not going well, and may well give you a few fractions of a second advantage in reaction time. In these situations, even little advantages can add up to differences in outcome.
With a shoulder holster accessed from a standing position, there is no such advantage. On the other hand, from a seated position with arms crossed in front of the shooter (as in a restaurant robbery), or from a seated position in a vehicle, a shoulder holstered gun can be accessed more quickly and with less telegraphing than one in a strong side waistband carry.
4. The two incorrect draw methods you cited are exactly what I had in mind when I called attention to the hazard of unintentionally sweeping people, body parts, and other things that shouldn't have guns pointed at them. I didn't provide the detail, but I'm glad you did.
Most folks who have not received really good training on proper shoulder holster draw technique often sweep themselves and other innocents during the draw, and also tend to sweep the intended target horizontally and then try to stop the muzzle in alignment with center of mass. This is really hard to do and often results in "oversweep" misses. A little bit of work with an Airsoft gun similar to the carry gun is suggested to get the correct technique down.
Even the few ranges that allow work from the holster will not allow live fire with shoulder holsters due to the number of things that can go wrong, but if one opts to carry this way it's real important to get the draw stroke, gun alignment and firing sequence refined and practiced to the point of unconscious competence. It might be just me, but there's so much different about this technique that I think it takes considerable dedicated work to get it right, even if you've got lots of experience with waistband rigs.
Going back and forth from shoulder carry to waistband carry is not a real good idea due to the high potential of "where is it today" confusion when you really need it.
At the end of the day, strong side waistband carry, shoulder rigs, and cross draw carry all have their pluses and minuses. All are viable options, just as each presents its own unique drawbacks and challenges. My hope is that our members will benefit from our discussions here so they don't need to relearn everything we found out the hard way themselves, and can make the best choices for their own individual circumstances.
Excaliber"
"At various times in my law enforcement career I used several types of both vertical and horizontal shoulder holsters, as well as a type that attached to the straps of my ballistic vest. Over time I came to use them almost exclusively for backup gun carry more often than for the primary weapon.
In my post retirement status I rarely use this carry method any longer, although I do keep a shoulder rig that I can't bring myself to part with in one of my holster bins. (Yes, that's "bins" as in plural - I'm probably the poster child for the never ending search for the perfect holster).
My preference for strong side belt holsters is a long considered personal choice and I wouldn't criticize anyone's decision to go with a shoulder rig for any one of a number of good reasons. The back problem cited by TAM is most certainly one of those, and your own preference for this carry method combined with your very well thought out system of gun, holster, wife tailored custom concealment methods and draw stroke makes it an excellent option for you. Guys of your size are also have a lot going for them if things get physical and can more successfully manage some of the issues I called attention to through a level of raw physical power that is not in the repertoire for many of the rest of us.
The caveats I raised come largely from experiences I had running training and qualification operations for 200 officers. Some plainclothes officers and detectives preferred shoulder holsters for either comfort (20%) or the CDI (chicks dig it) factor (80%). My agency allowed shoulder holsters when I took over the training division, and, after observing a number of nearly (my) heart-stopping situations involving the truly scary things people will do with them when put under a little stress during training exercises, I wrote and secured approval for a holster policy that did not allow them to be used in training or carried on duty.
I made that call not because they are inherently unsafe, but because I didn't have the resources to create and carry out a good separate training curriculum for this very different method of carry, and allowing officers to use them without the same level of training we provided for strong side belt holsters was an officer safety and liability disaster waiting to happen.
In my original post on this thread, it looks like I might not have been clear enough on some of the issues I tried to call attention to with the result that I appeared to be restating the obvious instead of contributing anything useful, so here's a follow up attempt at a bit of clarification:
1. In a strong side waistband holster, the gun is typically further away from a potential assailant than a gun carried in a shoulder holster when the shooter is in the natural stance (strong side foot somewhat to the rear of the support side foot) that most people instinctively use. If an attacker lunges from the front (as he may in a strongarm robbery attempt, and surely will if he sees your strong arm go under your coat to a bulge on your weak side), the natural reaction is to step back deeply with the strong side foot.
This places a gun holstered on the strong side in a position further away from the adversary, and is naturally defended by clamping the strong side arm close against the body during the draw stroke while fending off the adversary with the support hand.
When this same stepping back motion is executed by the wearer of a shoulder holster, his gun side moves very little in relation to his assailant. If he has not already drawn at this point (which he may not if he did not perceive a deadly threat before the lunge), he will find it very difficult to do so until he can somehow break contact and create enough distance to work with. Until he does so, both his gun and his body crossing gun arm remain highly vulnerable to the adversary. This is an important difference to know about.
The support hand can be used to help defend against a frontal assault with either carry method, but in my experience it is much harder to keep the attacker away from the gun, draw it successfully, and engage with it from a shoulder holster than with a strong side waistband carry method. A few experiments with a nongun or an Airsoft pistol and a friend willing to put some gusto into playing the aggressor role will readily illustrate the dynamics involved here.
2. With a shoulder holster, the butt of your firearm carried on your weak side is in a perfect position to be drawn by someone facing you at close range from the front if he suspects it's there and your covering garment is open to the front. How does he know it's there? A gust of wind, a turn of the body that exposed a bit of leather or gun, a telltale bulge that would be out of place for anything else, or a "wardrobe malfunction" during a physical struggle. In fact, from a mechanical standpoint, he can draw it faster and more powerfully than you can because he does not have to put an arm across his body to execute the movement and his straight in / straight out move is very difficult to block.
Knowing about little gotchas like this can keep one from the unhappy circumstance of learning this one the hard way in the field.
At this point you'd be right to remind me that you're not s'posed to let somebody get that close, but life is full of surprises. Despite our best efforts, occasionally we help some of them along by our own mistakes, which we made up our minds we'd never make, but then make anyway sometimes when our guard is down. I'm still working on that perfection thing, but haven't mastered it yet.
3. The unmistakable movement needed to access a shoulder holster while standing is second only to that required to draw from an ankle holster for telegraphing what's happening, and it's very vulnerable to a blocking movement. (Try it with a friend if you don't believe me). As you correctly pointed out, the initial motion for drawing a gun holstered at the waist on the strong side is very similar to that required to withdraw a wallet as would be natural for a compliant victim in a robbery. This delays the bad buy's moment of recognition that things are not going well, and may well give you a few fractions of a second advantage in reaction time. In these situations, even little advantages can add up to differences in outcome.
With a shoulder holster accessed from a standing position, there is no such advantage. On the other hand, from a seated position with arms crossed in front of the shooter (as in a restaurant robbery), or from a seated position in a vehicle, a shoulder holstered gun can be accessed more quickly and with less telegraphing than one in a strong side waistband carry.
4. The two incorrect draw methods you cited are exactly what I had in mind when I called attention to the hazard of unintentionally sweeping people, body parts, and other things that shouldn't have guns pointed at them. I didn't provide the detail, but I'm glad you did.
Most folks who have not received really good training on proper shoulder holster draw technique often sweep themselves and other innocents during the draw, and also tend to sweep the intended target horizontally and then try to stop the muzzle in alignment with center of mass. This is really hard to do and often results in "oversweep" misses. A little bit of work with an Airsoft gun similar to the carry gun is suggested to get the correct technique down.
Even the few ranges that allow work from the holster will not allow live fire with shoulder holsters due to the number of things that can go wrong, but if one opts to carry this way it's real important to get the draw stroke, gun alignment and firing sequence refined and practiced to the point of unconscious competence. It might be just me, but there's so much different about this technique that I think it takes considerable dedicated work to get it right, even if you've got lots of experience with waistband rigs.
Going back and forth from shoulder carry to waistband carry is not a real good idea due to the high potential of "where is it today" confusion when you really need it.
At the end of the day, strong side waistband carry, shoulder rigs, and cross draw carry all have their pluses and minuses. All are viable options, just as each presents its own unique drawbacks and challenges. My hope is that our members will benefit from our discussions here so they don't need to relearn everything we found out the hard way themselves, and can make the best choices for their own individual circumstances.
Excaliber"
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I "SUBTLE CARRY" That is it is on my hip in an OWB under a jacket but can be seen on occasion of going into my pocket etc.
In Alaska we have the option of any carry.
HOWEVER when I'm hiking, hunting etc in the wild n woolies I have a chest carry holster that converts to a cross draw.
In Alaska we have the option of any carry.
HOWEVER when I'm hiking, hunting etc in the wild n woolies I have a chest carry holster that converts to a cross draw.
Last Edited:
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I have a few light cotton collared shirts, kind of "Safari Sam" looking khaki/olive things I wear unbuttoned with the sleeves rolled up when I wander trails in the woods. If the breeze blows my shirttail back, I might be made with a holstered snub nose revolver on my belt. If I'm close to other people I just fasten one button in front. Quick access either way.
If it's hot enough to take the shirt off, I sort of roll it up a little and tie the sleeves around my waist, also covering the holster. This might impede a really quick draw, but short of a mountain lion dropping out of a tree on top of me, I'd like to think I could yank my gun out in time to be useful.
Open carry in populated areas? Not for me. If some complete stranger in a crowd is missing a few dots on his dice and intent upon obeying one of the arguing voices in his head, I'll be the harmless looking geezer in the corner with an innocuous lump under my loose shirt - not the obviously armed alpha dog that needs to be neutralized first.
If it's hot enough to take the shirt off, I sort of roll it up a little and tie the sleeves around my waist, also covering the holster. This might impede a really quick draw, but short of a mountain lion dropping out of a tree on top of me, I'd like to think I could yank my gun out in time to be useful.
Open carry in populated areas? Not for me. If some complete stranger in a crowd is missing a few dots on his dice and intent upon obeying one of the arguing voices in his head, I'll be the harmless looking geezer in the corner with an innocuous lump under my loose shirt - not the obviously armed alpha dog that needs to be neutralized first.
Can I just say...I'm praying for the day this may once again be the norm across our country. Probably a long shot, but all it takes is for one new generation to be taught right, to respect their elders and the law for things to change in our societies. In a respectful society I'd surely open carry, and I hope to find a little slice of heaven like that when I retire. Given the evils of our world in our cities today however, I must remain as sly as a serpent.
May the criminals know they're outnumbered, the public know they're safer, law enforcement know their backs are covered, and the un-American know they're completely unwelcome.
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Some guy holding the Pottery Barn door open for his family on 23rd got stuck in the kidney by a bum just for the fun of it a ways back. He died.
If someone wants to do ya, especially not just for the fun of it, they'll do ya, giant or not. people are smart little monkeys since day one.. don't kid yourself
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I have heard this reasoning several times in this thread and elsewhere. However, I have never heard of this happening outside of law enforcement grappling with a suspect during arrest or when a gun owner draws and does not shoot, thereby having their gun taken and used against them. Most of this type of theorizing occurs in States that allow one or the other and have been used as legal, but still not proven, basis for restricting methods of carry. I would prefer to see real life examples validating this concern.
Carrying a firearm, regardless of method, provides you with only additional options in a given situation, nothing more. The methods of carry have pros and cons for either, and those vary depending on the situation, which would be out of your control. Of course, in WA, you need a permit to actually carry in a vehicle, regardless of the methods.
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"Carrying a firearm, regardless of method, provides you with only additional options in a given situation, nothing more."
You might want to rethink that statement. Some methods of carry are more risky than others...
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That too, if someone intends to fo swiftly harm me, there is nothing I can do to prevent it other than position my body appropriately and keep aware of my surroundings. Anyone open carrying should implement those practices.
Most OC robberies or attacks are due to a severe lack of situational awareness.
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THANKS!
You saved me the time finding certaindeaf's Post # 32 this thread
Silver Hand
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Well, at least that is a real experience. Thought it was an advertisement the 1st time. I guess back pocket carry isn't the greatest (it's not a good place to keep your wallet, either). Thanks . But still, unlike how things are portrayed by the media, 1 incident is far from a trend. As I stated earlier, WA has been open carry for a looooong time, along with being only one of a very few shall issue States until recently. If this was really an issue or commonplace, it would have been changed here first.
I guess back pocket carry isn't the greatest (it's not a good place to keep your wallet, either). Thanks . But still, unlike how things are portrayed by the media, 1 incident is far from a trend. As I stated earlier, WA has been open carry for a looooong time, along with being only one of a very few shall issue States until recently. If this was really an issue or commonplace, it would have been changed here first.Similar threads
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