DB10 or Bullpup shotgun?

[RyanG90]

So I don't know if that counts as "discussion" but I believe the question will start one so why not. I'm torn between two guns. I've looked at the Keltec KSG in person and have been waiting to see the new S&W Bullpup.. That specific one Honestly is what re-sparked my interest in the platform. Needless to say I wasn't impressed with the bull pup design and I'm not sure the smith and Wesson will do it any better. Now, there's the Diamondback tactical .308 AR10 pistol (DB10) for about the same price of the new s&w Bullpup that's out now. I just feel like 1100 for a shotgun seems crazy when I could put that towards a more functional rifle? 1st world problems I know… any input is appreciated.

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[po18guy]

Never mind. Terminology mixed up.

 

[Knobgoblin]

Having run the ks7 , once , I can say it's not a pump gun I like.
The ks7 is the single tube design similar to ksg . 3 experienced shooters all decided we didn't "get" the concept.
Short for transport and storage, maybe? I could get down with a mossberg, winnie , 870 , or Ithaca all day. But the bullpup shotty was pretty awkward.

 

[po18guy]

For home defense, I see that Rock Island is now offering a 14" barelled semi-auto 12ga. "firearm."

 

[TTSX]

.308 really gets neutered out of a short barrel. Better to go with a shotgun. By a recognized, quality American brand. 1100 these days for a quality long gun seems more or less par for the course

 

[American123]

Do you already have a 16" barrel AR in .223 that has a reliable red dot, light, and sling (that you have practiced and become proficient with until it had a permanent brass shine on the shell deflector)?

If you don't - that's what you need before any of this other stuff.

.308 pistols are (IMO) dumb as hell, you are going to have so much unburnt powder igniting outside of the barrel it is horrendous. The velocity loss that occurs as a result of the short barrel makes it such that you are generally better off in nearly every measurable factor in getting a .300 blackout pistol if you are set on a .30 caliber projectile.

I at one point was very interested in the KSG, I have a great appreciation for bullpup designs and the Tavor is my preferred rifle. I ultimately decided a shotgun was not what I wanted to regularly rely on (for many reasons) one of which is just my preference for semi auto designs over manual designs, then beyond that I have found that I much prefer using box magazine fed firearms because if there is any type of malfunction related to ammo or the magazine whatsoever, it is generally able to be cleared far faster if you have the ability to remove the mag to address the problem, I like to have two coupled mags with any "at the ready" rifle for this reason, because if a failure did occur I can just switch to the mag that is already right there, compared to the Magpul D60 (which is awesome) but it still suffers from the same problem that if it failed, I would need a new magazine.

I think night vision, thermal sights, infrared lasers and illuminators are far more interesting than another gun of questionable utility.

 

[RyanG90]

I actually have a 10.5" .556 setup that I'm very familiar with, this is exactly why I posted on here. All of you guys are very knowledgeable and helpful! Maybe I'll do what a couple of you are suggesting and look at the semi auto 12g platform. Seems like it be right in the middle of what I'm looking for!

 

[Stomper]

 

[American123]

I actually have a 10.5" .556 setup that I'm very familiar with, this is exactly why I posted on here. All of you guys are very knowledgeable and helpful! Maybe I'll do what a couple of you are suggesting and look at the semi auto 12g platform. Seems like it be right in the middle of what I'm looking for!

If you can live with it not being a bullpup, and want a stock on it, the Mossberg JM PRO is the shotgun that I would get if I wanted a semi auto shotgun. Lots of videos of it seem to suggest it very reliably functions.

 

[RyanG90]

If you can live with it not being a bullpup, and want a stock on it, the Mossberg JM PRO is the shotgun that I would get if I wanted a semi auto shotgun. Lots of videos of it seem to suggest it very reliably functions.

I'm going to look into one, thanks man!

 

[The Heretic]

For short barreled rifle cartridge firearms, you do better with 7.62x39 than 7.62x51 or 5.56x45. IMO 14.5" is about the minimum for 5.56x45.

7.62x39 like .300 BO, is made for short barrels and does as well or better out of the really short barrels than 7.62x51 does.

 

[American123]

For short barreled rifle cartridge firearms, you do better with 7.62x39 than 7.62x51 or 5.56x45. IMO 14.5" is about the minimum for 5.56x45.

7.62x39 like .300 BO, is made for short barrels and does as well or better out of the really short barrels than 7.62x51 does.

What velocity threshold at muzzle do you consider "good enough" for 5.56?

 

[The Heretic]

What velocity threshold at muzzle do you consider "good enough" for 5.56?

Enough for the projectile to expand or fragment at 200-300 meters.

223 Remington/ 5.56mm NATO barrel length and velocity: 26 inches to 6 inches

Have you ever wondered how much barrel length effects muzzle velocity on your rifle? Well I did, so I cut up rifles chambered in 223 Remington, 308 Winchester, 7 mm Remington Magnum and 300 Winche…

rifleshooter.com

 

[American123]

Enough for the projectile to expand or fragment at 200-300 meters.

223 Remington/ 5.56mm NATO barrel length and velocity: 26 inches to 6 inches

Have you ever wondered how much barrel length effects muzzle velocity on your rifle? Well I did, so I cut up rifles chambered in 223 Remington, 308 Winchester, 7 mm Remington Magnum and 300 Winche…

rifleshooter.com

Ah ok, but that metric doesn't apply to someone who is primarily considering his city lot which is probably no farther than 100-200 feet maximum distance at most.

I do appreciate the thought process of the distance though and I agree that that is a practical distance, just not realistic for many people outside of a total breakdown of society, or foreign invasion / tyrannical government.

 

[The Heretic]

Ah ok, but that metric doesn't apply to someone who is primarily considering his city lot which is probably no farther than 100-200 feet maximum distance at most.

I do appreciate the thought process of the distance though and I agree that that is a practical distance, just not realistic for many people outside of a total breakdown of society, or foreign invasion / tyrannical government.

Thing is, some people like to say the 5.7x28 is just a glorified .22 magnum (it is more than that, but whatever), then do not consider that their 7.5" 5.56 "pistol" isn't much more than a 5.7x28 with a heavier projectile due to all the velocity lost via the really short barrel.

Most of the projectiles in 5.56x45 ammo, especially mil spec FMJ ammo, rely on the velocity attained from at least a 16" barrel to be effectively lethal at 200-300 meters.

Back to the topic of bullpups:

I have decades of experience with different bullpups (both rifles and shotguns) and I know their pros and cons. I still own several (e.g., PS90), have owned bullpup shotguns, and bullpup rifles from .22 rimfire up to 7.62x51. I prefer bullpups to short barreled rifles - I feel bullpups give up less effectiveness (if any), are quieter with less flash/concussion at the muzzle, balance a LOT better, mostly have better ergos - and when it comes to firearms like an AR/AK "pistol" without a brace or a Shockwave/et. al. without a brace, the bullpup is much easier and pleasant to shoot accurately - IMO.

Bullpups have their pros and cons like any other firearm, but some of the cons depend on the bullpup configuration - e.g., the trigger; I had a .22 LR bullpup with a really poor trigger and a 7.62x51 bullpup with a really nice trigger. Given the proper engineering/design, there is no reason a bullpup can't have a really good trigger. The PS90/P90 solves the issue of the mag sticking down and interfering with prone shooting. Proper gas system and suppressor design mostly mitigates issues with gas in the face issues.

The 7.62x51 bullpup I owned & shot, was an AWC G2A (M1A in a custom McMillan stock) that was capable of 0.5 MOA in my hands, and I am not that good of a shot - with an 18" barrel I could hit an 18" steel plate at 1 km about 50% of the time after figuring out where I was hitting (assisted by a spotter) - that was with a 2-7X Redfield old tech hunting scope. That was my first attempt at long range shooting.

I also used to own/shoot an AK bullpup (not a conversion, a Norinco 86s) in 7.62x39. Off hand standing, with Soviet ball ammo, I was able to hit a man sized target at 500 meters, about 50% of the time. The Norinco 86s has about an 8-10" sight radius (the sights are in the carry handle).



While neither of these are great feats of marksmanship, my point is, bullpups can be shot accurately.

I used to also have a Mossberg 500 bullpup. I found it to be ok, but somewhat poorly designed - the fore-end was unnecessarily bulky, the sights poor, the trigger at best mediocre, prone somewhat to short stroking, and it was heavy, among other things. I prefer my Shockwave as a home defense shotgun - it is slimmer, lighter and handier, albeit much more recoil. I would like to try some of the new semi-auto bullpup shotguns, I think they would be better than a pump for me, especially if I had to shoot them one handed (due to injury).

 

[jordanvraptor]

HS-10B.

 

[Member 34319]

Short barrel 308 or a bull pup shotgun. I vote bullpup shotgun.

Or

Short barrel 300 black / 7.62x39.

 

[Gbirk]

I went through this thought process a few months ago. I decided for me an 18" shotgun and a bullpup.308 were the solution.

My Langdon Tactical Beretta 1301 was dropped at my FFL yesterday, and I have been hunting for a Tavor 7 in .308, but nobody seems to have one.

Short barreled .308s seem silly, (fun but not a good solution for much of anything) and an 18" shotgun with a nice short tactical stock is short enough for home defense use.

 

[Gbirk]

Well, this thing is beautiful so I have to show it off. The hunt for a Tavor in .308 continues.