Dangerous Firearm Training

[CoastRange57]

Or I like the idea of taking instruction from ex-Military/LEOs.

The only way. Who is more qualified ?? Heavy on the ex / active military. This should be a minimum qualification for this type of instruction.

 

[clearconscience]

And I guess I should norrow that down, not just ex military m, but into some form of special training.

Either, sniper, special forces, military firearms expert/marksman.

Not just a supply SGT that went through basic.

 

[Koda]

Military training is different than civilian training because we are not facing armies. We are facing criminal civilians, the same people the police deal with every day. I dont think a trainer with a military background is a bad thing, but what I look for in a trainer primarily is one with police training.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Again not wanting to sound like a wet blanket but ...
Just 'cause someone has military training dosen't automatically make 'em a good source of training.
The military does do things differently than many folks.
Plus there are folks out there who served , even those in "Super Silly " units , that have no business teaching or handling guns.

Case in point.
I served in L.R.R.P / LRSD units in my Army career.
In these you had to be both Airborne and Ranger qualified.
I also have four combat tours.
All this does not make me an expert at anything.

That being said how we did things then and there is not how I might shoot now.
Like anyone I have good habits and bad.
What I do or how I handle a firearm works for me ... but may not for others.
Andy

 

[Who The F R U]

***** ANDY Said LRRP , Alway's like to here I wasn't the only retard (LRSD) ****
____________________________________________________________________
That video was still better than shooting with WA County Swat and SWORD.
Those dude's were scary.
I was supposed to be the instructor on the MG's,
After less than 5 min's of watching them we left.

 

[clearconscience]

Well I didn't mean just go because of it you still have to do your homework.

But If you live in the inner city military training in hostile areas may work better than police training.
Our streets are more like war zones.
Police aren't trained to handle gangs, cartels, terrorism, etc.
cops have a shoot 2nd mentality even more so now a days, military is the same to some extent,
But you need to have a different mentality than the basic officer training.

A good mix of both would be better.
I'm sure they both have their pos/neg.

 

[CoastRange57]

I dont think a trainer with a military background is a bad thing, but what I look for in a trainer primarily is one with police training.

And an active LEO with military training is even better. I train with combat veterans who have been through LEO training and 2 are current LEO. There are differences but having the military attitude combined with civil LEO training is pretty good. Most combat veterans have the " I am going home" mindset down pretty good, and the civil training of the LEO tempers the more violent side of the military training. Police work is very difficult today, since being nice and PC often takes the place of aggressive tactics.

 

[Koda]

Well I didn't mean just go because of it you still have to do your homework.

But If you live in the inner city military training in hostile areas may work better than police training.
Our streets are more like war zones.
Police aren't trained to handle gangs, cartels, terrorism, etc.
cops have a shoot 2nd mentality even more so now a days, military is the same to some extent,
But you need to have a different mentality than the basic officer training.

A good mix of both would be better.
I'm sure they both have their pos/neg.

I agree the lines are getting more blurred as more criminals are using military style weapons and mass shootings are on the rise, civilian training should be adapting to this. Primarily that would be a much more advanced class though, I don't think that would be appropriate for an average person taking their very first "advanced" "defensive handgun 1" class. For a DH1 class I would think police tactics are more preferred.

 

[clearconscience]

Safety should always come first! No matter what!

And yeah any basic handgun safety and manipulation can be easily attained by anyone, but I would suggest a controlled environment (indoors) and taught one on one.

And easy on the military weapons Koda!
Can't blame them.
The problem is the lack of punishment for criminals, ease of prisons, the need to victimize the criminals, and blame other things like guns.
And of course the media for glorifying these shootings or terror attacks.

 

[Alexx1401]

http://bearingarms.com/bob-o/2016/1...-justify-dangerous-firearms-training-failure/

I thought this would be just another gun article with a plug for where to go... but its an eye opener when I watched the video linked in the article I just about expected someone to get shot.

its a good quick article to read but here is a direct link to the video:
Chris Henderson - 视频 | Facebook

A GREAT example of people who no doubt would tell you they were "experts" who should not be allowed to even have a firearm. That they call this a "training class" should be a crime.

 

[Oathkeeper1775]

People paid for that?
I'm in the wrong business ...
Andy

I might have Diarrhea of the keyboard...but hopefully not Logorrhea

Not enough money in it; people that teach it, practice it, and keep on learning it for $0 can be found.

Some instructors and shooters think they are beyond reproach; some people go to the range to show what they know; others go to discover or realize their weaknesses (and we all have em) and the weaknesses of their equipment; then work on them before moving to the next level.

It takes @12 cumulative shooting hours of stationary shooting practice before a new member of a team receives the first @ 2 hours of movement classes (discussions, drawings, & Q/A). Shooting, Moving and Communicating at the same time (successive bounds for offense, alternating for retrograde) is the culmination of lots of hours of pre-course work.....

Then advanced training can begin; such as successive or alternating bounds (offense and defense) and the incorporation of other critical tasks in more complex scenarios like doing it all in in-climate weather conditions, while wearing a properly-fitted gas mask, setting demolition charges, gathering intel, CAS-EVAC, rescue, & handling prisoners, support by fire, react to a counter attack, and or other P.R.O.L.missions.

Two or more highly-experienced shooters still must discuss, rehearse, war-game, and do several dry runs before going "hot"; most pros know it and would admit that to be true. The benefits of a well-designed and implemented program go far beyond improved accuracy, decision-making (estimates of the situations), economy of force, and safety.

As each advanced training module is accomplished, the team has a new drill they all can rely on.

 

[fxdc]

They did it all wrong !

The wheelchair should of went then the rest of the group follow 10ft back while shooting.
LOL

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I might have Diarrhea of the keyboard...but hopefully not Logorrhea

Not enough money in it; people that teach it, practice it, and keep on learning it for $0 can be found.

Some instructors and shooters think they are beyond reproach; some people go to the range to show what they know; others go to discover or realize their weaknesses (and we all have em) and the weaknesses of their equipment; then work on them before moving to the next level.

It takes @12 cumulative shooting hours of stationary shooting practice before a new member of a team receives the first @ 2 hours of movement classes (discussions, drawings, & Q/A). Shooting, Moving and Communicating at the same time (successive bounds for offense, alternating for retrograde) is the culmination of lots of hours of pre-course work.....

Then advanced training can begin; such as successive or alternating bounds (offense and defense) and the incorporation of other critical tasks in more complex scenarios like doing it all in in-climate weather conditions, while wearing a properly-fitted gas mask, setting demolition charges, gathering intel, CAS-EVAC, rescue, & handling prisoners, support by fire, react to a counter attack, and or other P.R.O.L.missions.

Two or more highly-experienced shooters still must discuss, rehearse, war-game, and do several dry runs before going "hot"; most pros know it and would admit that to be true. The benefits of a well-designed and implemented program go far beyond improved accuracy, decision-making (estimates of the situations), economy of force, and safety.

As each advanced training module is accomplished, the team has a new drill they all can rely on.

That really wasn't my point.
My point was people spent good money and got unsafe and possibly useless training.

If I sold myself and personal history more , I too might be a "Gee Whiz" firearms instructor.
But if I did do that ... You can bet your azz that it would be a hell of a lot safer than what was shown in the OP video clip.
Andy

 

[Alexx1401]

That really wasn't my point.
My point was people spent good money and got unsafe and possibly useless training.

If I sold myself and personal history more , I too might be a "Gee Whiz" firearms instructor.
But if I did do that ... You can bet your azz that it would be a hell of a lot safer than what was shown in the OP video clip.
Andy

That was what got me about this. That people paid money to go to that as a "class". It's amazing no one got shot.

 

[clearconscience]

The hardest part of any gun training is safety and learning the laws.
Those most don't spend too much time on. Your expected to know them or tech them to yourself.
Most fancy gun classes are action to get you to come back and spend more money on "training".
The best training you can do is read, and practice, practice, practice.

You can learn the basic from youtube, how to hold a firearm, and how to look through a sight. The rest is muscle memory and becoming familiar and comfortable manipulating and firing your firearm. That will only get better with rounds down range.

I've never been to a class, and no matter how many times I wanted to take one to make myself better, I know it's a waste of money and time because I don't have the time or money to hit the range more often.
Thats the only thing that will make me better.

 

[Koda]

I've never been to a class, and no matter how many times I wanted to take one to make myself better, I know it's a waste of money and time because I don't have the time or money to hit the range more often.

but the class isn't a range session. Its the difference between target shooting and training.

I do think there should be more advanced classes available on use of force laws. Most of them are expensive seminars usually up in the bigger metropolis's like Seattle they tend to forget about little ol Portland.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Practice and safe habits are key.
Also shooting with a purpose is important.
No just blasting away at stuff.
Even when plinking , I try my skill.
Trying to hit that small odd colored rock or shell casing at range while you are hot and tired after walking a bit ( or cold and wet ) is a skill well worth mastering.

Finding what works for you and sticking with it is huge.
It may not be a NRA approved stance , but if you can hit what you need , handle your firearm comfortably and remain safe , then that's how you need to shoot.
Andy

 

[Flopsweat]

its gotta be a really bad feeling that sinks in when about 30 minutes into your class you realize you got screwed out of hundreds of dollars you could have spent at a qualified trainer. Its got to be an even worse bad feeling as you contemplate walking out after the first muzzle sweep.

Contemplate?

 

[Crazyeye24]

I would've left right then and there and would never go back....

 

[L84Cabo]

its gotta be a really bad feeling that sinks in when about 30 minutes into your class you realize you got screwed out of hundreds of dollars you could have spent at a qualified trainer. Its got to be an even worse bad feeling as you contemplate walking out after the first muzzle sweep.

Imagine how bad the felling would be if you stayed in the class and got shot by one of these idiots. You should never hesitate to walk out of a class if you have safety concerns. Screw the money if need be. A simple, "I'd like my money back as I don't feel safe in your course," should be all that's needed. If there is any resistance, then it's time for, "I'd like my money back as I don't feel safe in your course...and if you refuse I will post an accounting on every major gun forum I can find." And you should probably post anyway to warn people.

Do your due diligence in researching an instructor and course BEFORE you sign up. It's not hard to identify the ones with good reputations...and the ones with questionable reputations. The fact that this incident was from the folks at Tactical Response should surprise no one.