Dad wants a snubby.

[titsonritz]

Full size revolvers that are snubbies can be very accurate as well as easy enough to shoot to get that accuracy practically. I'm talking about medium frame SWs or Rugers such as the model 586, 686, 19, or 66 SWs or the GP101 Ruger. They are full size top of line revolvers with adjustable sights. Exactly the same .357s used for deer hunting except they simply have shorter barrels.

I'd suggest a snubby SW 586 or 686 for your dad. These are identical except the 586 is blued and the 686 is stainless steel. My 686, "Buddy", has been my EDC for a couple of decades. He was also my duck flock protector back when I had ducks. And has done some time as a woods gun. I don't have weak hands. But I'd recommend the SW 586 or 686 for someone with weak hands over the other options. Before Buddy, one of my favorite EDCs was a Ruger Security Six snubby. I've also owned or own various other SW, Colt, and Ruger revolvers in various barrel lengths in .357 and .44.

From Ransom Rest, all the models I mentioned in snubby versions can usually do 3" groups at 5o yards with appropriate ammo. In 6" versions they can usually do 2" groups. That is, such top of the line snubbies out shoot most of the semiautos used for SD with respect to accuracy. And they are only slightly less precise than the same models with 6" barrels. They are also easy to shoot. Back when I had a good place in the woods to shoot, I could keep everything within 5 or 6 inches offhand at 40 yards with my Security 6 snubby. That's good enough for deer hunting, had I wanted to shoot deer with a .357 snubby.

For weak hands one thing you need is to be able to pull the trigger through the long double action cycle that is usually preferred for self defense. Another is being able to handle recoil. A third is having a gun that takes a full range of rubber after market grips for maximal hand comfort and optimal hand positioning.

For a good DA trigger you need a medium frame revolver, not a small frame one. Small frames have smaller working surfaces, which translate into heavier DA trigger pulls. So skip the J frame SWs, or the Ruger SP101. I cannot, by the way, shoot J (small) frame Smiths at all well. And even with .38sp I find the recoil punishing. I don't even notice the recoil of my 686 snubby with full power .357mag loads. That's the difference between small frame and medium frame revolvers.

I'd also suggest going with the heavier under lugged designs. That is, the SW 586 or 686 or the Ruger GP101. This design really quenches recoil. Even snubby versions are muzzle heavy. Both guns have a wide variety of rubber after market grips available.

From the factory, the SW 586/686 will generally have a considerably better DA as well as SA trigger, and better fit and finish than does the Ruger GP101. The 586 and 686 are built on the L frame, which is SW's heavy duty medium size frame. Its pretty easy to replace the Ruger springs with Wolf springs, however. This lightens both the DA and SA trigger pull down to SW levels, though it doesn't give you the smoothness you get from a 586 or 686 trigger. I put Wolf springs in both my Ruger Security Sixes. I prefer the trigger on my 686 to my Rugers even with Wolf springs. So I recommend it a bit more than the Ruger, especially if you prefer not to replace springs. Used Rugers usually cost less than used Smiths, though. And both are very sturdy guns that can stand up to heavy use with full power loads.

Both the SW 586/686 and the Ruger GP 101 are classics at this point as well as widely available. If your dad goes to a range that rents out guns there's a good chance he could try both before buying.

Note that Buffalo Boar has ammo designed specifically for short barrel revolvers. These have faster burning powders so there is less loss of muzzle velocity from having a snubby vs longer barrel revolver.

I agree with a heavier wheel gun but I much prefer the fix sighted counterparts to the models you mention when it comes to carry...13/65, 581/681, Ruger Speed-Six, etc. I've found adjustable sights to snag, destroy my clothing and cut up my precious hide, while they are fine in duty and field holsters I like 'em fix for CCW.

Good point on selecting proper ammo for short tubes.

 

[raindog]

He no longer can handle his Kimber Custom Carry due to hand strength. I told him about the S&W EZ and he's not interested in anything in 9mm or .380. He wants a 6-shot revolver with a 2" or 3" barrel in .357 Magnum.

If he can't handle .45ACP in a 1911, he'll be annihilated trying to shoot .357Mag out of a snub.

When you say hand strength, is it the recoil from shooting or the weight of the gun (i.e., a heavy steel 1911 weighs to much to comfortably lift and take aim)? If the former, why not a 9mm 1911? If the latter, then I'd be concerned that to get a revolver big enough to comfortably shoot .357Mag would be be just as heavy as a 1911.

The ballistics here are interesting because .357 Mag is not a great performer out of a snub.

• .357 Mag out of a 2" barrel gives you a 125gr bullet moving at about 950fps
• 9mm from a small subcompact like a Glock 43 is a 124gr bullet coming out of 3" barrel at...about 1000fps
• (.38 Special coming out of a 2" barrel is that same 125gr bullet moving at 700fps.

 

[cruiserdude]

Also a 5 shot

Yes, and I remember loading 5 rounds at a time into it when I would take it out to shoot. Not sure of your point as you will note that I did not suggest it. Just responded to a post regarding a dislike for the firearm.

 

[titsonritz]

Yes, and I remember loading 5 rounds at a time into it when I would take it out to shoot. Not sure of your point as you will note that I did not suggest it. Just responded to a post regarding a dislike for the firearm.

My point was the OP specially said he wanted a 6 shot.

 

[OldBroad44]

I tried the snubbie route...too damn inaccurate without a lot of practice, too much snap..close as I get is a 3" SP101 .357 with Diamond Pro grip and 10# Wolff spring...38's cake, +P's no biggie, 357's very manageable. Street carry +P's, woods carry Buffalo Bore cast magnums.
Good belt with a tight carry holster the key to all.
Find the Wildnerness Frequent Flyer 5 stitch belt with stiffner the best belt for comfortable all around wear. Holsters? Why they invented shoebox's...lol

You tried the small frame snubby approach, not the medium (full size) snubby approach. I can't shoot small frame .357s accurately either. And I find them heavy recoilers. You DIDN' T try the snubby route I'm talking about. Your SP 101 weighs about 26 oz. its basically the Ruger version of the SW J frame. Such guns are much better to carry than to shoot.

My snubby is a SW 686 with a 2.5" barrel. It weighs about 36 oz. The Ruger equivalent is the GP 100, which also weighs about 36oz.

 

[OldBroad44]

I agree with a heavier wheel gun but I much prefer the fix sighted counterparts to the models you mention when it comes to carry...13/65, 581/681, Ruger Speed-Six, etc. I've found adjustable sights to snag, destroy my clothing and cut up my precious hide, while they are fine in duty and field holsters I like 'em fix for CCW.

Good point on selecting proper ammo for short tubes.

Good addition about the equivalent fixed sight guns. I go for adjustable sight guns because my eyes have a hard time seeing the smaller fixed sights. And I can also easily enlarge the slot on the rear sight of adjustable sight guns so that the sight picture shows space around the front sight, making them much easier for my old eyes to see. And I've never had the sights snag with the ways I carry. I also like full size adjustable sights because its easier to judge holdover. All matters of personal preference.

Also, however, in Ransom Rest studies I've seen over the years, it has seemed to me that the fixed sight models are usually less precise than the equivalent adjustable sight models -- as if the manufacturers reserve their best work for the adjustable sight models. However the difference in precision might not be large enough to matter when hand shooting.

I think OP should include your suggested fixed sight models as ones to also suggest to his father. More model options is much better if he's buying used. And there are probably lots more of the fixed sight models around used than 586s or 686s. And he might bring up with his dad the issue of ability to see sights vs snagging.

 

[PDXbiker]

I have a 642 that I really like. It's smooth and handles well.

My choice also. Had Clark Custom do a service action job on it and it is one smooth little lightweight snubby. Depending on the activity, it joins my NAA 22 mag, Ruger LCP .380 or Glock Mod 23 .40 to choose from for concealed carry.

 

[OldBroad44]

If he can't handle .45ACP in a 1911, he'll be annihilated trying to shoot .357Mag out of a snub.

When you say hand strength, is it the recoil from shooting or the weight of the gun (i.e., a heavy steel 1911 weighs to much to comfortably lift and take aim)? If the former, why not a 9mm 1911? If the latter, then I'd be concerned that to get a revolver big enough to comfortably shoot .357Mag would be be just as heavy as a 1911.

The ballistics here are interesting because .357 Mag is not a great performer out of a snub.

• .357 Mag out of a 2" barrel gives you a 125gr bullet moving at about 950fps
• 9mm from a small subcompact like a Glock 43 is a 124gr bullet coming out of 3" barrel at...about 1000fps
• (.38 Special coming out of a 2" barrel is that same 125gr bullet moving at 700fps.

Good point about whether weight of gun is an issue. I've been assuming that it isn't over the range of guns we're discussing.

Re your statement that ".357 mag is not a great performer out of a snub" -- you are comparing apples and oranges-- a .357 mag load designed for a much longer barrel fired from a 2" barrel vs a 9mm load fired from a 3" barrel designed for such barrels. Lets calculate energy so we can compare directly. This 2" snubby with the inappropriate ammo in your example gives a 125 gr bullet traveling at 950 fps. This pencils out to 250 ft. lbs. The 124 gr. bullet at 1000 fps from the 3" Glock is giving us 275 ft. lbs. So the 9mm is giving us a little more energy. But it has a somewhat longer barrel and appropriate ammo. Both numbers are within the range for .38sp. fired from 4" revolvers. So note that you don't get .357 mag performance from a snubby if you fire that sort of ammo. And raindog is right that if you stuff your .357 snubby with most types of ammo, you don't get . 357 performance.

Most self defense ammo in .357 mag is designed for 4" barrels. Most hunting ammo in .357 is designed for 6" or longer barrels. That's what you are usually getting when you buy over the counter. To get optimal performance from a snubby we need a load designed for short barrels. Such a load will have a fast burning powder that is nearly completely burned up by the time the bullet exits the short barrel.

Now lets look at a .357 ammo actually designed for snubby revolvers for self defense with a short barrel revolver-- Buffalo Bore's Tactical Short Barrel Lower Recoil Low Flash .357 mag 125 grain JHP. The BB website gives muzzle velocities when shot from various guns, including a 2.5" SW 66 and a 3" SW 65, at 1225 fps and 1322 fps respectively, and 416 and 485 ft lbs respectively.

So first, the 3 inch snubby with 485 ft lbs way outperforms the 3" 9mm with only 275. Second, both the 2.5" and 3" snubbies at 416 and 485 ft lbs are giving full .357 mag performance. (By comparison, most standard .357 mag self defense ammo shot from 4" revolvers runs about 400 to about 550.)

 

[cherrypointmar]

If it was my dad , I'd tell him to look at S&W's . Now , does he prefer a pre-lock or not , that starts the voyage . Then , SS or blued ? I myself would lean towards a 686 , but a snobby can be expensive .

Another to look at is the M28 , the Highway Patrolman . It's blued , but mine is one of the best shooting 357's I own . You can pick up a nice one in your price range . There's also the M27 , blued , which are great shooters .

In all honesty , I am talking older S&W's , which is where my love is . I don't own one with a lock , just personal preference . I know people that do , and they love them . That will open up your list even more .

Feel free to contact me with any questions if you find one and want any info .

 

[bbbass]

That's a 5 shot, OP specifically ask for a 6 shot, otherwise I'd say 640.

I'd hunt down and older S&W 65 w/ 3" barrel or a Ruger Speed/Police Six

If he can't dissuade a BG with 5, what makes him think the 6th will be the magic trick?

Considering that 'most" gunfights are finished by a count of three. That said, I EDC with 44+1.

 

[bbbass]

Good point about whether weight of gun is an issue. I've been assuming that it isn't over the range of guns we're discussing.

Re your statement that ".357 mag is not a great performer out of a snub" -- you are comparing apples and oranges-- a .357 mag load designed for a much longer barrel fired from a 2" barrel vs a 9mm load fired from a 3" barrel designed for such barrels. Lets calculate energy so we can compare directly. This 2" snubby with the inappropriate ammo in your example gives a 125 gr bullet traveling at 950 fps. This pencils out to 250 ft. lbs. The 124 gr. bullet at 1000 fps from the 3" Glock is giving us 275 ft. lbs. So the 9mm is giving us a little more energy. But it has a somewhat longer barrel and appropriate ammo. Both numbers are within the range for .38sp. fired from 4" revolvers. So note that you don't get .357 mag performance from a snubby if you fire that sort of ammo. And raindog is right that if you stuff your .357 snubby with most types of ammo, you don't get . 357 performance.

Most self defense ammo in .357 mag is designed for 4" barrels. Most hunting ammo in .357 is designed for 6" or longer barrels. That's what you are usually getting when you buy over the counter. To get optimal performance from a snubby we need a load designed for short barrels. Such a load will have a fast burning powder that is nearly completely burned up by the time the bullet exits the short barrel.

Now lets look at a .357 ammo actually designed for snubby revolvers for self defense with a short barrel revolver-- Buffalo Bore's Tactical Short Barrel Lower Recoil Low Flash .357 mag 125 grain JHP. The BB website gives muzzle velocities when shot from various guns, including a 2.5" SW 66 and a 3" SW 65, at 1225 fps and 1322 fps respectively, and 416 and 485 ft lbs respectively.

So first, the 3 inch snubby with 485 ft lbs way outperforms the 3" 9mm with only 275. Second, both the 2.5" and 3" snubbies at 416 and 485 ft lbs are giving full .357 mag performance. (By comparison, most standard .357 mag self defense ammo shot from 4" revolvers runs about 400 to about 550.)

Model 57 for the win!!!

 

[Tower 1]

My choice also. Had Clark Custom do a service action job on it and it is one smooth little lightweight snubby. Depending on the activity, it joins my NAA 22 mag, Ruger LCP .380 or Glock Mod 23 .40 to choose from for concealed carry.

Everyone is missing the point trying to solve the problem with a full size revolver with a 2" barrel to get 6 shots, jut because it has a 2" barrel dose not make it a TRUE snubby. A full size frame does not make for a easy concealment. I still think the Colt Commando - steel frame, 6 shot with +P loads is the answer.

 

[HaveGun]

Dad just said he wanted a snubby revolver and wanted to know how the quality compared between the Kimber, S&W, New Colt, and Taurus.

I agree it's a poor choice for an elderly person, but he's a former Vietnam-era USMC Sniper and suggesting he carry a compact 9mm or .380 is insulting to him.

 

[cherrypointmar]

Sounds like the man knows what he wants . It's going to come down to what he will be comfortable with carrying on his hip . Why don't you ask him to make a list of what he thinks he would like and work from there ?

 

[bbbass]

Hard to beat S&W for quality. Just sayin'...

 

[titsonritz]

Model 57 for the win!!!

I'd love to have a 58

 

[titsonritz]

If he can't dissuade a BG with 5, what makes him think the 6th will be the magic trick?

Maybe the last one is for himself.

 

[bbbass]

Maybe the last one is for himself.

Aha, the ol zombie dead solution.... whatever happens, don't let em eat ya alive!!!

 

[Pandaz3]

I have revolvers in 357 by Taurus, Charter, Ruger, but only one snubby, a five shooter by Taurus. The Taurus all steel 605 is great. I am not particularly accurate with it in double action, but close it's close enough for me. Single action, as good as the sight radius is.

I do have snubbies in 38 by Ruger, Charter, S&W and Colt. Only the Colts are six shooters

I do have a six shot Ruger LCR in 327 Federal magnum. it is what I do carry or one of my Detective Special's

I like my Taurus guns, revolvers or otherwise. I would recommend a Taurus 856, a 38 capable of +P ammo as a six shooter or consider a 327 from Ruger.

 

[titsonritz]

That's not what I was taught in public school...

View attachment 828564

They teach in public schools? I thought it was straight up brain washing.