CZ Shadow safe? R.O. killed by AD at USPSA match

[srxfan]

It's 2021. Firearms have been mass produced for a long time. Why is guns firing when dropped even a thing??

Production guns are often drop-safe, or at least have enough legal representation to say they are and defend that in court. Many manuals still have disclaimers that a drop may fire the gun, even guns that should not do that.

Race guns people modify for competition, often are not. The trigger itself may be so light that the inertia from a drop will cause it to disengage whatever safeties are there anyway, though often those safeties may be taken out.

 

[Kruel J]

Production guns are often drop-safe, or at least have enough legal representation to say they are and defend that in court. Many manuals still have disclaimers that a drop may fire the gun, even guns that should not do that.

Race guns people modify for competition, often are not. The trigger itself may be so light that the inertia from a drop will cause it to disengage whatever safeties are there anyway, though often those safeties may be taken out.

Oh that makes total sense, I get it. I suppose my post was more a general question.......and at an event full of people and guns and ammo all being timed.... I would hope that the event rules would require all firearms to be reasonably "drop safe" without modifications done to the internal safety systems. Lighten the trigger or whatever...fine....but why not require firing pin blocks?

 

[srxfan]

Oh that makes total sense, I get it. I suppose my post was more a general question.......and at an event full of people and guns and ammo I would hope that the event rules would require all firearms to be reasonably "drop safe" without modifications to the internal safety systems.

I guess the assumption is that if you are a serious competitor in these things you would have enough safety in your habits that would make the risk of ND/AD small enough to be acceptable, even in a drop-dangerous gun. The perception that drop-safeties impair trigger pull/feel and slow down split times also pushed for their removal.

I wonder if USPSA/IDPA/IPSC etc., will reconsider their rules. A drop even without a discharge is an instant DQ, like many safety violations, so they do hold safety highly. The defense-in-depth measure of having a more drop-safe gun (since maybe no gun is 100% drop safe?), in case a drop occurs, is definitely nice to have.

 

[Kruel J]

I guess the assumption is that if you are a serious competitor in these things you would have enough safety in your habits that would make the risk of ND/AD small enough to be acceptable, even in a drop-dangerous gun. The perception that drop-safeties impair trigger pull/feel and slow down split times also pushed for their removal.

I wonder if USPSA/IDPA/IPSC etc., will reconsider their rules. A drop even without a discharge is an instant DQ, like many safety violations, so they do hold safety highly. The defense-in-depth measure of having a more drop-safe gun (since maybe no gun is 100% drop safe?), in case a drop occurs, is definitely nice to have.

That's the thing, a huge assumption that every competitor is an "expert".


Even "experts" drop stuff. The best of the best with the best gear make mistakes. From SEALS to SWAT there are instances of drops, NDs and general poor handling. Humans......go figure.

 

[Kruel J]

Here's a thought.......

Professional race car drivers are considered "experts" and widely recognized as better than most of us behind the wheel right? They fiercely compete to be better, faster and win with more experience behind the wheel of a souped up car......

So how come they have MORE safety equipment, procedures and gear than just an average driver commuting home? They are the experts right? Why do they need MORE safety gear than regular folks? Make sense?

 

[Koda]

Update 11/11/2020: We now know that the firearm in question was a DA/SA CZ Shadow, which does not have an internal firing pin block.

I'm actually surprised to learn there are modern guns being made without a firing pin block. Heck even newer modern 1911s include them now.

that said, inertia discharge is such a low probability maybe that's the reason some manufacturers leave them out.

 

[Kruel J]

I'm actually surprised to learn there are modern guns being made without a firing pin block. Heck even newer modern 1911s include them now.

that said, inertia discharge is such a low probability maybe that's the reason some manufacturers leave them out.

It worked for Sig I guess...........

 

[bbbass]

Tragic. The people at those matches scare me more than any pistol. I've never dropped a loaded pistol in my life.

I've been to action pistol matches for 30yrs and never seen it happen. Seems it's pretty rare.

That reminds me of when the USPSA shooters folded THEIR club and started coming to our IDPA matches. FWIW, I've shot both disciplines. And they started bellowing about how unsafe we were because we ran a hot range (carried holstered loaded firearms). One guy went so far as to mention how people walking around with loaded guns scared him. I mentioned he is around people with loaded guns walking around all day long every day, CCW. And that's what IDPA simulates. Crickets.

Safety rules are very strictly enforced in both types of matches. You will never meet more range nazi ROs than at an action pistol match. People are taught to run/walk/move/shoot with guns, with them pointed in a safe direction, and finger off the trigger unless actually shooting. We have a match safety meeting before each match. We have TWO RO/SO officers right there with the shooter, at least one is supposed to be close enough to stop any oops. They will physically grab you and keep you from doing it. All RO and all competitors are trained on being careful when reholstering. And any AD/ND results in a DQ... a fearsome penalty to a top competitor, but not as fearsome as causing injury or death. Like most gun owners, there are a variety of people competing. Some are more focused on safety than others, and some are just azzhats. We try to weed those out.

Is people running with guns in hand "bad optics". Well, we had one local granola type write a letter to the editor that there were "men in the woods shooting guns at cutout targets of human beings", so there's that kind of thinking too when it comes to optics. Can't please everybody.

Come on over to my place, we can go to an IDPA shoot and increase your comfort level with how things are done.

I was at a pistol match recently and a guy AD into the concrete floor between the shooter and opposite the target direction. Bullet fragment cut
a person's face standing behind the shooter. We could not find where the bullet went but luckily did not hit anyone. Back towards the target he rotated the wrong direction pulled the pistol and AD. Trying to go too fast over there skill level.

Long time ago at a USPSA match, one of the competitors was getting dehydrated but continued the match... he lost some control over his legs, tripped over his feet, and the gun came backwards. He must've had his finger on the trigger, against the rules, because he had an ND that landed about 3 feet behind him... towards the gallery of other shooters and spectators. DQ. He was done for the day.

Another shooter that was getting up there in years was losing his safe gun handling focus/attention. The gun would tend to wander and he would wave it towards places he wasn't supposed to, like an Italian talking with his hands. He was repeatedly warned. The final straw was when we were shooting an El Presidente, for laymen - a setup that requires the shooter to start with his/her back to the targets, gun holstered and hands in the air. At the buzzer, turn, draw, and shoot.... IN THAT ORDER!!!!! This elderly gentleman at the buzzer drew his loaded handgun and leveled it right at me and other observers, before turning. That earned him a permanent disinvite from all matches ever. Same thing with an elderly female shooter. Has me worried about MY doing such things at age 68.

I tend to steer clear of that whole scene. Personally I don't understand simulating combat with specially prepared non-combat guns. Why not just have everyone use factory prep guns and concentrate on skill?

Anyway, my $0.02 which is worth about the same as everyone else's...

No prob.

But to answer the question you posed:

It's a game. Played with guns. It's not training like IDPA can be partially considered. I'm not personally into race guns because I don't have that fast twitch reflex needed to pull the trigger that fast, but the guys that can do it are amazing and I don't begrudge them anything beyond their all too common attitudes of superiority.

You know about Cowboy Action matches? Dress up in old west clothes and shoot with old timey style guns. It's said to be a hoot. I'm not interested. But Cancel culture will probably stop them and shut em down. That would be a shame IMO.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

While I have never shot at a USPSA Match before...
I have shot in competition , mostly high powered rifle and muzzle loading firearms.

And while the shooting is not the same...some of the issues can be.
Such as , overly focusing on the competition aspect of shooting , instead of what you should be doing...
Shooting at you best , but safely.

Having a accident while shooting or even being negligent can happen to any of us.
Sometimes it works out okay...other times not so much.

Always pay attention to what you need to do , in order to be safe , even at the cost of a high score.

Now with all that said...
I am not saying that is what happened in the OP...
I am just saying that :
I have seen folks get too wrapped up in winning and make some mistakes in firearm handling , during competition.
Andy

 

[titsonritz]

What does this comment add to the convo? I don't see anyone bad mouthing Colts here, or anything else without a FPB. I've seen the same sorts of "complaints" about the trigger feel, with vs. without, but I've owned both, and I sure couldn't feel a significant difference. As stated by others, though, I'm not a competition shooter, either. Yes, this is a tragedy, and even 1 in a million is still one too many, I suspect a rule change on the horizon requiring even race guns to be drop safe. It's not like a comp is life or death, so why allow an avoidable risk? Later.

Dave

Well, excuse the hell out of me, who died and made you Grand Poobah?

FYI, I'm not "bad mouthing Colts here, or anything else without a FP" but rather commenting on the predictable foreseeable knee jerk reaction.

 

[Kruel J]

Well, excuse the hell out of me, who died and made you Grand Poobah?

FYI, I'm not "bad mouthing Colts here, or anything else without a FP" but rather commenting on the predictable foreseeable knee jerk reaction.