CZ Shadow safe? R.O. killed by AD at USPSA match

[ron]

I have been looking at the CZ Shadow for some time now. I saw this article about CZ Shadow dropped and discharged.
I like the accuracy and weight of these high end pistols but no internal firing pin block? What other pistols do not
have a firing pin block? I know original design of 1911 and the series 70 does not.

USPSA Range Officer Shot

In tragic news for the entire shooting community, a USPSA range officer was shot over this weekend as the result of an accidental discharge during a match.

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[Aero Denezol]

Tragic. The people at those matches scare me more than any pistol. I've never dropped a loaded pistol in my life.

 

[srxfan]

Wonder if they're considering requiring race guns to be drop safe.

 

[asiparks]

Tragic. but as the article says, one in a million.
Any CZ with "B" in the name or those with a the hole and pin visible in the rear slide serrations has a firing pin block.


my Shadow 2, without, and P09 with.
The Shadow does, like 1911's, have a half cock notch, but I on't know if this is intended specifically to catch a slipping hammer, or just part of the related Omega decocking trigger system.
I wonder if the dropped pistol was completely stock or whether the hammer/ sear engagement was reduced...I understand the argument that the FPB can effect trigger feel, but my P09 and 07 have CGW Pro kits and the pull is pretty damn good with the FPB intact, but I'm far from a competitive racegunner...

 

[titsonritz]

Guess we should melt all the Colt series 70 1911s.

 

[daved20319]

Guess we should melt all the Colt series 70 1911s.

What does this comment add to the convo? I don't see anyone bad mouthing Colts here, or anything else without a FPB. I've seen the same sorts of "complaints" about the trigger feel, with vs. without, but I've owned both, and I sure couldn't feel a significant difference. As stated by others, though, I'm not a competition shooter, either. Yes, this is a tragedy, and even 1 in a million is still one too many, I suspect a rule change on the horizon requiring even race guns to be drop safe. It's not like a comp is life or death, so why allow an avoidable risk? Later.

Dave

 

[Certaindeaf]

I wonder if it was a factory/stock gun. Doubt it.

 

[Member 34319]

Tragic incident.

Race guns should not be treated like duty or home defense guns. Some are so freaking ridiculously modified that they will fire on a sneeze. Most that run them know this and new competitors usually don't start out with these sort of guns.

On the opposite side of that coin. Competitions, are one of the most safe places to shoot. If you state otherwise, you have clearly NEVER been to a competition of any sort. Typically, you drop your gun, you are DQd. That's it, some venues might ask you to pack up and leave. Even the best of the best make mistakes, we are human. The competitor here will likely never recover from this accident. Tons of safety measures are put in place to prevent pretty much all and any risk of these sort of things from happening. That said, accidents still can happen.

As noted in the article, this was purely a freak accident. With hours and hours of competitions held weekly and annually, this was the first incident of its kind. That says tons about the seriousness of safety at shooting competitions.

Be safe out there!

 

[ron]

On the opposite side of that coin. Competitions, are one of the most safe places to shoot. If you state otherwise, you have clearly NEVER been to a competition of any sort. Typically, you drop your gun, you are DQd. That's it, some venues might ask you to pack up and leave. Even the best of the best make mistakes, we are human. The competitor here will likely never recover from this accident. Tons of safety measures are put in place to prevent pretty much all and any risk of these sort of things from happening. That said, accidents still can happen.

I was at a pistol match recently and a guy AD into the concrete floor between the shooter and opposite the target direction. Bullet fragment cut
a person's face standing behind the shooter. We could not find where the bullet went but luckily did not hit anyone. Back towards the target he rotated the wrong direction pulled the pistol and AD. Trying to go too fast over there skill level.

 

[Member 34319]

I was at a pistol match recently and a guy AD into the concrete floor between the shooter and opposite the target direction. Bullet fragment cut
a person's face standing behind the shooter. We could not find where the bullet went but luckily did not hit anyone. Back towards the target he rotated the wrong direction pulled the pistol and AD. Trying to go too fast over there skill level.

What were the repercussions? Stuff like this, from my experience, gets snuffed out quickly. Going too far beyond your known experience, gets you a ticket to the exit in any of the competitions I've been to.

 

[Kruel J]

Tragic. The people at those matches scare me more than any pistol. I've never dropped a loaded pistol in my life.

I used to be able to say the same. But just a couple months ago I dropped my G48 onto a concrete floor while reholstering. Something I've done a thousand times with no problem. But I'm human and I made an error.

It didn't go off of course and the only damage was to my pride. Nobody else saw it so I could easily pretend it didn't happen. But for the sake of the thread topic I figured I would share.

 

[ron]

DQ for that match. I have shot with the guy that did the AD. Spends a lot of money on exspensive guns.
I was at a different match that he lost one stage and emptied his gun because he was pissed. He got DQ.
I don't like this guy. He shoots over his skill level. I watch a High Master shoot a course and it doesn't
even look like he is going very fast? Especially the draw from holster. But his times are very fast.

 

[FourTeeFive]

I have repeatedly heard people "joke" about their competition guns and light actions, and ADs while drawing from holster, etc. Like an action that light is a good thing?

I tend to steer clear of that whole scene. Personally I don't understand simulating combat with specially prepared non-combat guns. Why not just have everyone use factory prep guns and concentrate on skill?

Anyway, my $0.02 which is worth about the same as everyone else's...

 

[Kruel J]

As an RO I've seen some sloppy handling but I've yet to see anyone drop a handgun. I'm sure it's a matter of time.

 

[Camelfilter]

"...Update 11/11/2020: We now know that the firearm in question was a DA/SA CZ Shadow, which does not have an internal firing pin block. According to eyewitnesses, the gun missed the holster during Load and Make Ready, fell and struck the concrete indoor range floor hammer first, causing the round to discharge."

Notable & self reminder. Take all day to reholster if you have to.

Speed is never a consideration for such. Think it thru, be deliberate in doing so. Every time.

Is the holster clear. Am I wearing new/less worn clothing. Perhaps clothing which may have pull toggles, zipper dangles, longer shirt tail etc etc.

Not a dig, by any means, on anyone whom has had a reholster drop.

Just a simple reinforcement to a thought & procedure process.

 

[srxfan]

I have repeatedly heard people "joke" about their competition guns and light actions, and ADs while drawing from holster, etc. Like an action that light is a good thing?

I tend to steer clear of that whole scene. Personally I don't understand simulating combat with specially prepared non-combat guns. Why not just have everyone use factory prep guns and concentrate on skill?

Anyway, my $0.02 which is worth about the same as everyone else's...

There are different divisions in the sport. Some are factory stock only ("Production" division), some divisions are go all out and make your gun super fast ("Open" division, in USPSA). You can choose which one you want to participate in, though you run the same course, and your fellow shooters may be running in a different division, so you could have one person running a stock gun, then the next shooter a tricked-out one.

For Open division, a light action lets you get that fraction of a second faster split - which matters to the top-most competitors in the field.

USPSA is not really a "real life defense" simulation, more just shooting, aiming, and moving fast. The IDPA type of competition is more oriented to real world defensive scenarios, and has rules such as, you must shoot targets in the order that they come up in your line of sight (USPSA you can choose any order, which could expose you to return fire if those targets could shoot back).

I personally am not that good and a long way off from being that good, so I haven't considered a trigger anywhere near that light!

 

[American123]

Competition is fun, it does help you build up that mental acuity to shooting/moving under pressure that punching paper without competition is nearly impossible to duplicate.

Some competitions styles are more "cool" then they are deliberate practice for defensive gun use, and I say that with respect to cover and concealment, some types of competition are more focused on raw time compared to accuracy which encourages sacrificing sound use of cover and concealment for ultimate time savings, which in a life and death encounter wouldn't be necessarily what you would want to do.

All that being said, this was a preventable accident, though accidents do happen. We are talking about guns, there is an inherent risk associated in being around gunfire, but dropping the gun is a major sin that there's just no excuse for in my opinion, that's indicative of someone trying to do things way above their skill level. Sometimes it's also "your time." When I used to do "tactical two gun" which was fun from the shooting aspect, not the waiting around, or the ego aspect, dealing with people who didn't like losing. I started to wear a plate carrier because I grew increasingly concerned for my well being after seeing some of the participants skill levels.

 

[CRBMoA]

"...Update 11/11/2020: We now know that the firearm in question was a DA/SA CZ Shadow, which does not have an internal firing pin block. According to eyewitnesses, the gun missed the holster during Load and Make Ready, fell and struck the concrete indoor range floor hammer first, causing the round to discharge."

Notable & self reminder. Take all day to reholster if you have to.

Speed is never a consideration for such. Think it thru, be deliberate in doing so. Every time.

Is the holster clear. Am I wearing new/less worn clothing. Perhaps clothing which may have pull toggles, zipper dangles, longer shirt tail etc etc.

Not a dig, by any means, on anyone whom has had a reholster drop.

Just a simple reinforcement to a thought & procedure process.

QFT!

It is my observation that holstering is the most potentially dangerous thing that I do with my gun on the daily. And lately I have been taking all the time in the world to make sure my long shirt or vest do not engage the trigger and blow my own a** off.

 

[Kruel J]

It's 2021. Firearms have been mass produced for a long time. Why is guns firing when dropped even a thing??

 

[CRBMoA]

It's 2021. Firearms have been mass produced for a long time. Why is guns firing when dropped even a thing??

Because more people than ever before are being handed their first gun by a salesman instead of Dad.

I can buy the baddest baseball bat in the world, but that won't make me Hank Aaron.