Cultural concepts of stopping power ...

[CountryGent]

I thought this might be an interesting; ever come across cultural concepts of stopping power, real or imagined? What do I mean; I give some examples:

• I've been reading, in fits and starts, a book from 1936 on the topic of handgun shooting. The author, in that time and place, seemed to think the .357 Magnum is a lightening bolt from the heavens, and the 7.63㎜ Mauser a speed demon. And don't get him started on "taming" the massive .45 ACP. (Not knocking any of those, but seem common now. And, consarn it, I still need to acquire a Broomhandle or Luger in the Teutonic Thirty.)
• I'm presently working on process called "Project M". Now it has in no way, shape, or form, any connection to any fictional person or thing, but I've giggled more than once when thinking of the cheesy James Bond flicks of yesteryear. As such, I fired up Dr. No whilst wifely sidekick and pequeños were away, and was reminded of the scene in which an armorer gives him a PPK, with a description of said ballistics as "delivery like a brick through a plate glass window". (I've always been a g'yuge fan of the .32 ACP / 7.65x17㎜, but it is hardly a barn burner.)
• I remember a time when some thought, and I encountered individuals discussing such, that when a .30/30 wouldn't do it, a .32 Special was a straight-up death-ray on game animals. (Ballistically they are damn near identical. One is still with us, the other faded, though still factory loaded.)
• In the same vein, I remember old school types saying the .223 Remington / 5.56㎜ is a worthless "poodle shooter", only fit for dispatching sickly, tired, vermin who were already on the brink of suicide. Now everyone and their uncle owns and swears by rifles chambered in said.
• On the other side, my own father has often opined .44 Magnum and .45 ACP are egregiously overpowered, preferring .22LR, 9㎜ (both Corto and Luger), and eventually settling on the Forty. (I remember him explaining to my two younger brothers about cartridges, opining 9㎜ Luger and .40 S&W were good, but, with an eye-roll, "only one of your brothers carries a .45". Honk.)

Any recollection of yours concerning ballistics? Good, bad, accurate, laughable, or something else?

Enjoy!

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[Provincial]

In the 1950's, when I was a child, the locals in our rural area felt that the 30-06 was the best of all worlds. Many still swore by their 30-30's (and the few 32 Specials handed down within the family) while the 30-40 Krag and .303 British were looked down on as being obsolete and funky. Given that few shots were encountered over 100 yards locally because of heavy vegetation, all these calibers, and practically all of those less popular, were fully adequate for deer, and in the proper hands, Elk.

 

[bionic knees]

while I was growing up there were 2 rifles in the house. a Remington bolt action .22 that my dad's older brother had given him for Christmas. [ new in Oct. 1945] and a Savage 99f in .308 that he bought in 1957. that was it until we kids started getting a little older. the .308 served him well over the years as did the .22 rifle. I have both now and won't part with them till I die. personally, I like options so I have .338 Win mag, the Savage .308, .270 short mag, .257 Roberts, and a .223 with a second coming shortly.

 

[CountryGent]

while the 30-40 Krag and .303 British were looked down on as being obsolete and funky.

That takes me back. When I was, well, a poor kid, my best friend's grandfather, who was a beautiful soul, lent me a sporterized Krag in said for various hunting outings. I've been through a bunch of pews in this wacky adventure called life, but I still remember carrying that funky, smooth-actioned, rifle in the flower of youth.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

I hear and read of the so called lack of "stopping power" of black powder and round ball.
All I know is that none of :
Grouse
Coyotes
Antelope
Deer
Elk
And Bear...
Have ever said to me :
"Gee Andy I wish you killed me with a more modern projectile."

All firearms , shooters , cartridges and projectiles have limits...
Learn to shoot well within those limits and all will be good.
Andy

 

[No_Regerts]

I like to watch the ebb and flow between "practical" cartridges and "magnums". I feel that there are extremes in fans within both camps. I call it the Creedtards vs the Magdumbs. Somewhere in the middle are the reasonable people.

 

[CamoDeafie]

The myth of the .50bmg shockwave cone being enough to blow limbs off at 1000 yards with a near miss

 

[No_Regerts]

The myth of the .50bmg shockwave cone being enough to blow limbs off at 1000 yards with a near miss

Start at 3:05

 

[CamoDeafie]

Start at 3:05

Comments in that video seem to indicate that he actually hit the deer with a very improbable shot (in one eye, out the other with a FMJ round)

 

[Member 34319]

Marketing. Yes it even works on gun owners.

 

[Stomper]

I hear and read of the so called lack of "stopping power" of black powder and round ball.
All I know is that none of :
Grouse
Coyotes
Antelope
Deer
Elk
And Bear...
Have ever said to me :
"Gee Andy I wish you killed me with a more modern projectile."

All firearms , shooters , cartridges and projectiles have limits...
Learn to shoot well within those limits and all will be good.
Andy

If one could go back in time and ask Civil War vets missing limbs and half their faces from Miniballs fired from BP smoke-poles THEIR opinions on efficacy that shooting technology… would be an elucidating experience.

 

[Mikej]

Start at 3:05

What? And miss the dramatic build up? Heck no!

 

[Tarawa86]

The title of this thread sounds like one of those bogus classes universities make you take in order to fulfill one of your humanities requirements.

"Man, I have to take 'The Politics of Kanye West: Black Genius and Sonic Aesthetics' and 'Cultural concepts of stopping power' this semester in order to graduate. It's gonna suck."

 

[RX-79G]

I thought this might be an interesting; ever come across cultural concepts of stopping power, real or imagined? What do I mean; I give some examples:

• I've been reading, in fits and starts, a book from 1936 on the topic of handgun shooting. The author, in that time and place, seemed to think the .357 Magnum is a lightening bolt from the heavens, and the 7.63㎜ Mauser a speed demon. And don't get him started on "taming" the massive .45 ACP. (Not knocking any of those, but seem common now. And, consarn it, I still need to acquire a Broomhandle or Luger in the Teutonic Thirty.)
• I'm presently working on process called "Project M". Now it has in no way, shape, or form, any connection to any fictional person or thing, but I've giggled more than once when thinking of the cheesy James Bond flicks of yesteryear. As such, I fired up Dr. No whilst wifely sidekick and pequeños were away, and was reminded of the scene in which an armorer gives him a PPK, with a description of said ballistics as "delivery like a brick through a plate glass window". (I've always been a g'yuge fan of the .32 ACP / 7.65x17㎜, but it is hardly a barn burner.)
• I remember a time when some thought, and I encountered individuals discussing such, that when a .30/30 wouldn't do it, a .32 Special was a straight-up death-ray on game animals. (Ballistically they are damn near identical. One is still with us, the other faded, though still factory loaded.)
• In the same vein, I remember old school types saying the .223 Remington / 5.56㎜ is a worthless "poodle shooter", only fit for dispatching sickly, tired, vermin who were already on the brink of suicide. Now everyone and their uncle owns and swears by rifles chambered in said.
• On the other side, my own father has often opined .44 Magnum and .45 ACP are egregiously overpowered, preferring .22LR, 9㎜ (both Corto and Luger), and eventually settling on the Forty. (I remember him explaining to my two younger brothers about cartridges, opining 9㎜ Luger and .40 S&W were good, but, with an eye-roll, "only one of your brothers carries a .45". Honk.)

Any recollection of yours concerning ballistics? Good, bad, accurate, laughable, or something else?

Enjoy!

Context is certainly important:

James Bond went from .25 ACP to .32 - as far as spy guns go, I suppose the .32 is a lot spicier.

.32 Special is a tad larger and faster. 5.56 and 5.45 are practically the same, yet we certainly credit one with more advantage. Maybe there are other factors going on?

.45 and .40 have similar total recoil, generally lighter .40s have more felt recoil, and they always have more pressure. Interesting that your dad would think them so different.

.223 is not a powerful cartridge that expands well compared to other softpoint hunting rounds. But as an anti-personnel cartridge the ball version tends to shatter at the cannelure, turning the round into a kind of fragmenting projectile. We generally don't consider the latter to be a reliable and humane way of turning animals into useful meat.

 

[ScottInPDX]

I find the idea of "stopping power" itself to be a weird one. For some reason, it's been popular for a long time to throw this phrase around with very little thought about what it actually means. Sure, a 22LR has less "stopping power" than a 50BMG. In informal conversations, it's a perfectly adequate term to use. But when people really want to have a serious discussion about the merits of one cartridge or another, "stopping power" is a useless phrase.

What really matters is wound channel size and shape. That's it. That's what determines lethality. Unlike "stopping power", those are quantifiable. And all of the parameters that contribute to those characteristics, such as velocity, weight, bullet shape, expansion, accuracy, etc, can also be quantified. And on top of all of that, even hard numbers need context to really be meaningful. Your heavy +P 45ACP round may have more muzzle energy and expansion than a FMJ 5.56 NATO round, but if you're planning on taking on targets with kevlar vests, you might still want to go with the 5.56. Because the numbers alone don't tell the whole story.

I guess what I'm saying is I hate marketing and vague, non-contextualized arguments.

End rant.