Cross border OR/WA FTF gun sales discussion

[Trlsmn]

The ATF likes to do sting operations, so going through with such a transaction could land you with about 10 years in club fed, and usually the people working for the ATF seem just like normal gun owners. Better to be safe than sorry is what I go by.

Exactly! Never play fast and loose with gun laws. What is the point? Is the $10 to $20 difference on the deal worth the cost of a defense attorney and 10 years in jail?

So where are we at? I've seen nothing to convince me that a guy with 2 homes in bordering states is allowed to sell guns across state lines.

 

[markw76]

Currently, I can carry a loaded gun in my pocket in at least 30 states but can buy [in person] in only one of those states. Who thought of that crap?

Bureaucrats and Democrats!:complain:

 

[slyguy]

As always it comes down to let the buy beware. You can't claim ignorance - as posted earlier.
thx physicsguy

 

[Cougfan2]

This has been discussed in other threads, but the low down is if you live in Oregon and want to purchase a firearm, (any kind of firearm except BP), in Washington or vice versa, you need to do it thru an FFL. There are some states that allow purchases of long guns from people in contiguous states, but even then, they have to go thru an FFL.

FTF sales OF ANY KIND only apply to people that reside in the same state and are allowed by law to posses firearms.

 

[Trlsmn]

My rules to live prison free are, whatever your drivers license is, that is what state I consider the buyer or seller to be from. Sure people can move across state lines but I personally wont buy or sell a gun to anyone unless our drivers licenses are from the same state.

 

[Bello425]

I understand this is getting old, but an Active Duty military member stationed in OR, but deciding to reside in WA is considered a dual resident. As long as the Military Orders state OR as the location of the military installation.

 

[Captain Question]

I understand this is getting old, but an Active Duty military member stationed in OR, but deciding to reside in WA is considered a dual resident. As long as the Military Orders state OR as the location of the military installation.

That looks a lot more like "live in Washington, work in Oregon."

I suppose if you're claiming Washington as your residence and Oregon as your assigned post - but even then I don't think you have a "residence" in Oregon.

But hey - that's what federal attorneys get the huge bucks to figure out!

 

[tionico]

been hashed over a few times here.... bottom line, if I have reasonable grounds to b3elieve the seller is NOT a resident of MY state, and I buy, I am, if caught, headed for the Greybar Hotel, likely for a rather long time. Ten years seems to be the preferred length of residence.

No one here says it is RIGHT.. it is just the law. Something about interfering with interstate commerce, and/or MY right to keep and bear.... but, with the present nanny state centrally powerful and ever-growing guvamint, that's what WE've got until we rise up and turn out our "representatives" who insist on this sort of stupid stuff, and get in some new ones who will uphold the CONSTITUTION for a change.

Bottom line, most folks are ONLY a resident of ONE state. Some exceptions, and most who qualify know who they are. Trismn's deal on matching driving licenses is wise counsel. Most states demand proof of RESIDENCE before they'll issue a license to anyone. Military cna, and often are, exceptions. Their home state, that is, where they lived before stationing elsewhere, is their legal residence.... and so is their state of duty station. Thus a good ol boy from Tennessee, born and raised in the hollers, IS a resident of Tenneseee, and can buy/sell arms with anyone else who is. If he is stationed at Fort Lewis, he is ALSO resident of Washingotn, and will have duty papers to establish that fact.

Best tactic is, if you're not CERTAIN the seller is a resident of the same state in which YOU have a friving license, the two of you would best find a friendly Federal Firearms Licensee to middle the deal. If the seller declares he is a resident of your state, and you see nothing that might indicate otherwise (shows up in vancouver with a car bearing Oregon plates... suspect. Ask to see driving license. If it too is Oregon, you're off to see Cocktailer or someone like him. FFL Dealer. If he says he's resident of Washington, shows up in a vehicle bearing Washington plates, has a Seattle area code, he's likely not stretching things too much.

Now, if a resident of one state wants to buy a long gun from a DEALER (that is, FFL dealer) with a shop in another contiguous state, that's fine.. the DEALER will run the FBI check, get the proceed code, and Bob's your Uncle. Short guns, no way, MUST be middled through an FFL Dealer in YOUR state... except that Washington (and I believe Oregon as well) still allow face to face sales of handguns between residents of same state. NEVER across state lines. Neither party can transport across that river for a face to face deal... BUT, the present owner can transport across to carry to a FFL Dealer... its still HIS gun, then the FFL dealer can legally middle the sale. Watch it, though, as NO ONE from California can buy or sell outside the state.... soon to include ammunition. MUST be handled by a FFL Dealer inside California.

To violate these unconstitutional laws is a federal felony for both parties.. the buyer and the seller. And, to illegally sell (that is, not through a FFL Dealer) to a resident of California adds in state felony charges if caught.

disgusting, illegal, sad, horrible.. but the state of present law. I wish I knew what we could do, quickly, to challenge these laws and get rid of them. No reason for them other than the mass-media fear mongering we have come to accept as the status quo.

OK, rant off... wel, not quite. At least turned down for a spell......

Oh, and having a CWP from any state, or valid in any state, other than that of your own residence, does NOT entitle you to buy or sell outside the requirement to use the FFL for the transfer. ALL that does is allow you to carry, concealed, in the states that recognise the permit you have. And it allows certain other priviledges, such as being able to transport a loaded weapon inside a vehicle, in some states and circumstances, which would otherwise be illegal in that state. Nothing to do with buying/selling arms. It DOES, however, indicate a recent passing of a background check, thus that that party is not likely to be a felon or otherwise barred from owning arms.

 

[Randini]

been hashed over a few times here.... bottom line, if I have reasonable grounds to b3elieve the seller is NOT a resident of MY state, and I buy, I am, if caught, headed for the Greybar Hotel, likely for a rather long time. Ten years seems to be the preferred length of residence.

No one here says it is RIGHT.. it is just the law. Something about interfering with interstate commerce, and/or MY right to keep and bear.... but, with the present nanny state centrally powerful and ever-growing guvamint, that's what WE've got until we rise up and turn out our "representatives" who insist on this sort of stupid stuff, and get in some new ones who will uphold the CONSTITUTION for a change.

Bottom line, most folks are ONLY a resident of ONE state. Some exceptions, and most who qualify know who they are. Trismn's deal on matching driving licenses is wise counsel. Most states demand proof of RESIDENCE before they'll issue a license to anyone. Military cna, and often are, exceptions. Their home state, that is, where they lived before stationing elsewhere, is their legal residence.... and so is their state of duty station. Thus a good ol boy from Tennessee, born and raised in the hollers, IS a resident of Tenneseee, and can buy/sell arms with anyone else who is. If he is stationed at Fort Lewis, he is ALSO resident of Washingotn, and will have duty papers to establish that fact.

Best tactic is, if you're not CERTAIN the seller is a resident of the same state in which YOU have a friving license, the two of you would best find a friendly Federal Firearms Licensee to middle the deal. If the seller declares he is a resident of your state, and you see nothing that might indicate otherwise (shows up in vancouver with a car bearing Oregon plates... suspect. Ask to see driving license. If it too is Oregon, you're off to see Cocktailer or someone like him. FFL Dealer. If he says he's resident of Washington, shows up in a vehicle bearing Washington plates, has a Seattle area code, he's likely not stretching things too much.

Now, if a resident of one state wants to buy a long gun from a DEALER (that is, FFL dealer) with a shop in another contiguous state, that's fine.. the DEALER will run the FBI check, get the proceed code, and Bob's your Uncle. Short guns, no way, MUST be middled through an FFL Dealer in YOUR state... except that Washington (and I believe Oregon as well) still allow face to face sales of handguns between residents of same state. NEVER across state lines. Neither party can transport across that river for a face to face deal... BUT, the present owner can transport across to carry to a FFL Dealer... its still HIS gun, then the FFL dealer can legally middle the sale. Watch it, though, as NO ONE from California can buy or sell outside the state.... soon to include ammunition. MUST be handled by a FFL Dealer inside California.

To violate these unconstitutional laws is a federal felony for both parties.. the buyer and the seller. And, to illegally sell (that is, not through a FFL Dealer) to a resident of California adds in state felony charges if caught.

disgusting, illegal, sad, horrible.. but the state of present law. I wish I knew what we could do, quickly, to challenge these laws and get rid of them. No reason for them other than the mass-media fear mongering we have come to accept as the status quo.

OK, rant off... wel, not quite. At least turned down for a spell......

Oh, and having a CWP from any state, or valid in any state, other than that of your own residence, does NOT entitle you to buy or sell outside the requirement to use the FFL for the transfer. ALL that does is allow you to carry, concealed, in the states that recognise the permit you have. And it allows certain other priviledges, such as being able to transport a loaded weapon inside a vehicle, in some states and circumstances, which would otherwise be illegal in that state. Nothing to do with buying/selling arms. It DOES, however, indicate a recent passing of a background check, thus that that party is not likely to be a felon or otherwise barred from owning arms.

Good rant I like your points of view, most all Americans who dont like/think a law is stupid with just sit back and think "someone will fix it for me" after all thats being a good sheeple baa baa baa.

 

[Oldfart]

Okay. Hypothetical situation: I have a gun I want to sell. I advertise that fact and someone shows up on my front porch to buy it. He looks at it and digs the money out of his pocket. I hand him the gun and he leaves.

Now go back through all that and substitute the word "sword" for "gun." What's the difference and - if there is a difference - why should I enforce a law that I feel is unconstitutional in the first place?

Of course if you're one of those people who have to buy all the newest and prettiest guns as soon as they hit the dealer's shelves you'll have filled out a 4473 which is de facto registration. OTOH, if you confine your purchases to front-porch or tailgate transactions you are free from that particular bit of odious tyranny. (There is a word there you should have picked up on, it's "free." Try it, you'll like it!)

 

[Captain Question]

What's the difference and - if there is a difference - why should I enforce a law that I feel is unconstitutional in the first place?

You are not enforcing a law that is odious and unconstitutional.

A law that is odious and unconstitutional will be enforced against you if you sell to the "wrong" person. At best you will escape with many of your hard earned dollars transferred to an attorney with a federal license. At worst, you will not be worrying about earning dollars unless or until something on a work-release program comes up.

 

[tionico]

well, depends on where you live.. if Vancouver, and he shows up parked round the corner, you've seen nothing to indicate he's not a Washington resident. If somewhere near Seattle or Salem, odds are pretty good he's a resident of your state. As long as he's never said anything to indicate otherwise, you can assume he is... however, IF he's given ANY indication he's a resident of a different state, and there is a record of it, and you're caught up with later, it could get ugly.

substitute "sword", and the only thing that changes is the letter of the law. Swords are certainly "arms", of which we've the right to keep and bear. however, they are not named in the FIREarms laws. Just as lethal, though generally at shorter distance. As far as I know, interstate commerce in them is not regulated.... which mitigates in FAVOUR of the same status for firearms, doesn't it?

My own practice is, until/unless I've some reason to believe a potential buyer/seller of a firearm is either a restricted person (felon, etc) or a non-resident of my state, I'll not hesitate to trade with them. The burden of proof is on the Feds to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that I had reasonable cause to believe my trading partner was non-resident or restricted. In the absence of any evidence toward that, I have committed no crime. I'd rather see NO driving license/identification with address, NO car with number plate, than see the wrong one.. because then I have grounds to believe he is not resident of MY state. Or, if someone PM's me on here and his profile shows he lives in Grant's Pass and I am in Vancouver WA, I've also got cause to believe he's not resident where I am... though there are situations otherwise, but I'd need proof to over-ride the evidence I do have. Careful, and cagey.

Trouble is, the "bar" of pain is so high for violating these unconstitutional regulations, it seems wise to abide by them.... in other words, I won't take part in a transaction where it could be proven I have knowledge of a violation. It is not on ME to PROVE the guy is a legal trading partner.

However, there is a two-edged sword here. IF we continue to kowtow to these illegal regulations, and fail to press our elected REPRESENTATIVES to get rid of them, we will continue to see things like BATF sting operations, people going to prison for doing nothing unconstitutional (though, for now, illegal), and heavy restrictions on our rights to keep and bear, and to engage in interstate commerce. Simply ignoring the laws puts us at risk, quietly circumventing them brings no change, leaving us at risk.

Clean out the state houses, and the big Marble Zoo alongside the Potomac. THAT"s the game plan. Until we can freely enjoy the fruits of the 2nd and 10th ammendments, we're not done yet.

 

[k7grc]

From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person ... . A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.


rent it to them on a 99 year lease ; )

 

[eriknemily]

well, depends on where you live.. if Vancouver, and he shows up parked round the corner, you've seen nothing to indicate he's not a Washington resident. If somewhere near Seattle or Salem, odds are pretty good he's a resident of your state. As long as he's never said anything to indicate otherwise, you can assume he is... however, IF he's given ANY indication he's a resident of a different state, and there is a record of it, and you're caught up with later, it could get ugly.

substitute "sword", and the only thing that changes is the letter of the law. Swords are certainly "arms", of which we've the right to keep and bear. however, they are not named in the FIREarms laws. Just as lethal, though generally at shorter distance. As far as I know, interstate commerce in them is not regulated.... which mitigates in FAVOUR of the same status for firearms, doesn't it?

My own practice is, until/unless I've some reason to believe a potential buyer/seller of a firearm is either a restricted person (felon, etc) or a non-resident of my state, I'll not hesitate to trade with them. The burden of proof is on the Feds to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that I had reasonable cause to believe my trading partner was non-resident or restricted. In the absence of any evidence toward that, I have committed no crime. I'd rather see NO driving license/identification with address, NO car with number plate, than see the wrong one.. because then I have grounds to believe he is not resident of MY state. Or, if someone PM's me on here and his profile shows he lives in Grant's Pass and I am in Vancouver WA, I've also got cause to believe he's not resident where I am... though there are situations otherwise, but I'd need proof to over-ride the evidence I do have. Careful, and cagey.

Trouble is, the "bar" of pain is so high for violating these unconstitutional regulations, it seems wise to abide by them.... in other words, I won't take part in a transaction where it could be proven I have knowledge of a violation. It is not on ME to PROVE the guy is a legal trading partner.

However, there is a two-edged sword here. IF we continue to kowtow to these illegal regulations, and fail to press our elected REPRESENTATIVES to get rid of them, we will continue to see things like BATF sting operations, people going to prison for doing nothing unconstitutional (though, for now, illegal), and heavy restrictions on our rights to keep and bear, and to engage in interstate commerce. Simply ignoring the laws puts us at risk, quietly circumventing them brings no change, leaving us at risk.

Clean out the state houses, and the big Marble Zoo alongside the Potomac. THAT"s the game plan. Until we can freely enjoy the fruits of the 2nd and 10th ammendments, we're not done yet.

Well said Tionico. Let's continue to lobby our congressmen to eliminate this unconstitutional restriction on our gun rights!

 

[tionico]

From whom may an unlicensed person acquire a firearm under the GCA?

A person ... . A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes.


rent it to them on a 99 year lease ; )

federal law allows an unlicensed person to buy a firearm from another unlicensed person provided both are residents of the same state. Interstate transfers are not legal, unless middles by a FFL Dealer.

as to temporary use... yes this is true.... I may be wrong, but I seem to recall the federal regs have a time limit of thirty days. I KNOW some states do. Not sure of Washington/Oregon.

I can go hunting in Montana, and have a rifle loaned to me by a Montana resident. Or I can pay big bux and go to a hunting camp in Minnesota, and rent a shotgun as part of the package... or go see my friend Jeff in Ohio and borrow his Colt .45 to go destroy some beer bottles at a local rubbish tip.... but, in none of those cases does OWNERSHIP change. Only temporary possession.

Be careful there are thousands of niggly little regulations at federal, state, and local levels. Fed is the only level to have the authority to restrict interstate transfers of ownership (though it should not... that power is NOT conferred upon the Federal Government by the Constitution, in fact, is prohibited by the Tenth Ammendment.

 

[eldbillbo]

Just when I thought i knew everything i needed to know about buying guns over state lines i come across this

we all know buying firearms across state lines without the use of a FFL in illegal as per

"To whom may an unlicensed person transfer firearms under the GCA?

A person may sell a firearm to an unlicensed resident of his State [and only a person from his state], if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may loan or rent a firearm to a resident of any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes, if he does not know or have reasonable cause to believe the person is prohibited from receiving or possessing firearms under Federal law. A person may sell or transfer a firearm to a licensee in any State. However, a firearm other than a curio or relic may not be transferred interstate to a licensed collector."


But What if a Dual resident of OR and WA states that he owns a home in WA and OR, lives in Oregon part of the year and the Rest in WA. . Has a WA Drivers licence . I agree with the TRESMAN that what shows on the ID is the safest way to go how ever i found this as far as being able to buy from a dual stater

ATF Rul. 80-21

"State of residence" is defined by
regulation in 27 CFR 178.11 as the
State in which an individual regularly
resides or maintains a home. The
regulation also provides an example
of an individual who maintains a
home in State X and a home in State
Y. The individual regularly resides in
State X except for the summer
months and in State Y for the summer
months of the year. The regulation
states that during the time the individual
actually resides in State X he is a
resident of State X, and during the
time he actually resides in State Y he
is a resident of State Y.

Does that just pertain to dealer sales ? I was offered such a trade , I turned it down better safe than sorry

 

[100$bill]

I'm just a newbee so please don't take this too seriously, but here is the Washington state RCW. How it applies.. ??

See Washington Law Chapter RCW 9.41 and subsections 9.41.122 and 9.41.124.

Also to confuse the issue a bit is the definition of a "dealer" described under the Definitions part of the RCW 9.41.010 (4).

 

[tionico]

I think the clincher is that it is illegel to KNOWINGLY sell to a prohibited person..... if the guy's got a flony rap and you don't ask... or if you do and he says no, you'd have a first affirmative defense. You did not KNOWINGLY sell to a prohibited person. That's why, in the scenario above, I described the guy parking round the corner. If you saw his Oregon plates on the car and you live in Seattle and he's knocking up your front door to buy your handgun, you'd have prima facie cause to at least SUSPECT he's a resident of another state.... I bought a gun from a guy who met me in Vancouver driving onn Oregon plated car... but he showed me a Washington State Driver's LIcense. I took that to be solid evidence he's a resident if the same state I am. I bought. He sold. Done.

That dual resicency bit is mainly to treat the not too uncommon scenario of the Montana wheat farmer escapes his ice block of a ranch, hops in the motorhome and heads down to Texas for the winter, returning to the last hurrah of the snowdriffts when the weather changes.

Best is to ask some pertinent questions, take the answers at face value unless you have something to clue you elsewise. If you asked questions and got the correct answers, you did your bit. They would have to PROVE you KNEW he was a resident of another state, and not your own. Perhaps make some notes of the conversation after the other party leaves, just to refresh your memory in case anyone in a costume comes round asking pointed questionis.....

 

[xuph18cdw]

I would like to get some opinions, I have a Pistol that I want to trade to a WA Resident for his rifle, I am in oregon, Can we meet in the middle at a FFL, Do the paper work on both sides, Exchange guns, Drive home and enjoy! Sounds legit, Sounds Simple, Sounds like a Small savings on shipping and Time, Thanks for your Opinions, Also can COCKTAILER Help us out, Seems like he does deals in OR And WA.

 

[deen_ad]

I bought a AK-74 from a private seller in Oregon. He found a dealer in Hillsboro that would do the paperwork. We met there, I looked the AK over, handed him the money and the dealer did the NIS check (used my Oregon CHL and WA DL) and I walked out with the AK. Fairly simple.

----------------------------------------------------------

The "Trade Rating" is low by 3
Not everyone posts it I guess.

Deen
NRA Benefactor/Recruiter
WAC member
SWWAC member