Crazy how many people want lasers on their pistols.

[CRBMoA]

That is my point.

Trajectory is a 3 dimensional calculation and lining up the red dot is only two.

Probably not an issue up close, but I would not want one for variable distance encounter IRL.

 

[powermad]

When I was playing around with the TLR-8 I sighted it in at 10 yards with the dot parked on top of the front post while sighting through the irons as normal.
I didn't try to use it independently, more of an aiming point.
By knowing how far down the laser is from the center of the bore can give you an estimation of range up to and beyond 10 yards also. Provided you can see it past 10 yards without magnification.

When using it as a primary sight like a Red Dot I found that I was always searching for it.
When parked on top of the front post it pops right up if the lighting is right and no searching for it.

 

[RVTECH]

I have zero experience with lasers on guns but it seems most of what I read or see reveals to me they have little to no practical use.

I suspect they might have some specialized uses under isolated situations but lasers, like a lot of gun accessories, seem to be like fishing lures - with most designed to catch fishermen instead of fish.

 

[EHJ]

That is my point.

Trajectory is a 3 dimensional calculation and lining up the red dot is only two.

Probably not an issue up close, but I would not want one for variable distance encounter IRL.

And therein is one of the only blessings about training at a 50 foot only range. That's about my limit.
Center mass POA gets you everything from a low abdomen to t-box hit.

 

[Nightvisionary]

So you can see your laser at 50 yards?
That's one hell of a holdover - or under...
Pretty sure KJ was referring to bore axis heights and POI being so extreme with a pistol length barrel at distance.

With an IR laser under night vision, a green laser at mid day, yes, a red laser in low light most easily. 2, 5,10,20,50, 1000 yards. The concept remains the same. A zero is the same regardless of the sighting system used. The light the eye receives when looking through irons or optics is as straight as the light from the laser. This is why adjustable sights and windage and elevation turrets exist. The bore axis difference on current lasers is not enough to make a practical difference.

 

[EHJ]

With an IR laser under night vision, a green laser at mid day, yes, a red laser in low light most easily. 2, 5,10,20,50, 1000 yards. The concept remains the same. A zero is the same regardless of the sighting system used. The light the eye receives when looking through irons or optics is as straight as the light from the laser. This is why adjustable sights and windage and elevation turrets exist. The bore axis difference on current lasers is not enough to make a practical difference.

"Semi-Automatic Pistols"
That's this forum topic.
No scopes in conjunction with a laser....

When using a laser on a Handgun - there are extremely huge deviations of POA and POI at shorter distances. (Barrels at 5" or less...)
Hugely different than a rifle barrel bore axis keeping aligned with a laser over distance.

PS: Be nice. Talk to people as you would want to be addressed yourself. You are in a room with people whom you do not know but yet feel the need to elevate yourself with condescension of others. We know what you are talking about - (basic ballistics) - we're talking about handguns and lasers and their effectiveness and drawbacks.

 

[Nightvisionary]

Bingo. But whatever. I like surprising people with my apparent lack of knowledge.

Explain how a 1.25 inch off bore axis makes a difference at the under 7 yards distance for almost all defensive handgun use? If you examine the data below for 9mm 124 grain Speer Gold Dot with a 25 yard zero using a -1.25 below bore axis sight you will see there is no practical need for any hold overs or unders out to 50 yards.

Range	Drop	Drop	Windage	Windage	Velocity	Mach	Energy	Time	Lead	Lead
(yd)	(in)	(MOA)	(in)	(MOA)	(ft/s)	(none)	(ft•lbs)	(s)	(in)	(MOA)
Calculated Table
0	1.2	***	0.0	***	1159.4	1.038	370.1	0.000	0.0	***
5	1.1	21.7	0.0	0.3	1145.4	1.026	361.1	0.013	2.3	43.8
10	1.0	9.1	0.1	0.5	1131.9	1.014	352.7	0.026	4.6	44.0
15	0.7	4.5	0.1	0.8	1119.0	1.002	344.7	0.040	7.0	44.3
20	0.4	1.9	0.2	1.1	1106.6	0.991	337.1	0.053	9.3	44.5
25	-0.0	-0.0	0.3	1.3	1094.8	0.981	330.0	0.067	11.7	44.8
30	-0.5	-1.5	0.5	1.6	1083.5	0.970	323.2	0.080	14.2	45.0
35	-1.0	-2.7	0.7	1.8	1072.6	0.961	316.7	0.094	16.6	45.3
40	-1.6	-3.8	0.9	2.0	1062.2	0.951	310.6	0.108	19.1	45.5
45	-2.3	-4.9	1.1	2.3	1052.3	0.942	304.8	0.123	21.6	45.8
50	-3.1	-5.8	1.3	2.5	1042.7	0.934	299.3	0.137	24.1	46.0

 

[Nightvisionary]

"Semi-Automatic Pistols"
That's this forum topic.
No scopes in conjunction with a laser....

When using a laser on a Handgun - there are extremely huge deviations of POA and POI at shorter distances. (Barrels at 5" or less...)
Hugely different than a rifle barrel bore axis keeping aligned with a laser over distance.

PS: Be nice. Talk to people as you would want to be addressed yourself. You are in a room with people whom you do not know but yet feel the need to elevate yourself with condescension of others. We know what you are talking about - (basic ballistics) - we're talking about handguns and lasers and their effectiveness and drawbacks.

As the ballistic table shown above demonstrates, no, there isn't.

 

[EHJ]

As the ballistic table shown above demonstrates. No, there isn't.

You're talking BULLET DROP BALLISTICS up there.
WE are talking about POA / POI criticality due to parallax errors with a short barrel handgun and position of a lasers axis.
At these ranges bullet drop is of no consideration.
Just basic geometry illustrating parallax errors and hindrances that need to be overcome with training.

Edit: I mis-used a term.

 

[Nightvisionary]

You're talking BULLET DROP BALLISTICS up there.
WE are talking about POA / POI criticality due to parallax errors with a short barrel handgun and position of a lasers axis.
At these ranges bullet drop is of no consideration.
Just basic geometry illustrating parallax errors and hindrances that need to be overcome with training.

I apologize for being blunt but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. To look at a ballistics table with inputs for bore axis offsets, zero ranges, and bullet drop and to not understand the direct relationship to the subject at hand demonstrates that. Lasers do not have true parallax as the beam does not shift regardless of the shooters position.

 

[cowboykid8]

Before I worked at a gun counter, I never really put a lot of thought into the idea of Crimson Traces or any other laser sighting system. Now after having that experience, I've been blown away by the level of demand for these products. I notice that the vast majority of people who come in interested in them seem to be beginners or otherwise casual shooters.

Now I'll go to my grave arguing for using a weapon light over a laser any day. The laser has always been a novelty item and a glorified toy to me. Everyone that tells me about why they want one has this idea that they're going to use the laser to hipfire their pistol across their living room or down the hall and hit some bad guy. I don't know, I'd rather train actually being proficient with irons or a red dot and have a light, all of which would be vastly more advantageous in a myriad of situations.

Anyone else wanna validate me, or argue with me?

A lot of people get their gun information from the movies. Crimson Trace certainly leveraged a bit of that hype with their slogans and marketing, giving the impression to the buyer that they will have more influence over a target with a laser beam than the firearm that is pointed at them.

Movies also make the lasers look smooth and an easy way to aim so I am not surprised that people like them.

I had one on a pistol and as much time as it took to sight it in and then realizing that the aim point was only good for that distance it became a novelty. If it gives others confidence and they train with it, then more power to them.

 

[Medic!]

Just remember. You need to keep in mind that light travels faster than sound.


That's why some people appear to be so bright.................... Until the start talking.

 

[EHJ]

I apologize for being blunt but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. To look at a ballistics table with inputs for bore axis offsets, zero ranges, and bullet drop and to not understand the direct relationship to the subject at hand demonstrates that. Lasers do not have parallax.

You're not being blunt. You are becoming obtuse now in the face of personal revelation with another twist of condescension for measure.

"Ballistics" (Outside forces acting on a projectile) is all about curves and trajectories...
Not the topic here.


Peace.

 

[Kruel J]

A lot of people get their gun information from the movies. Crimson Trace certainly leveraged a bit of that hype with their slogans and marketing, giving the impression to the buyer that they will have more influence over a target with a laser beam than the firearm that is pointed at them.

Movies also make the lasers look smooth and an easy way to aim so I am not surprised that people like them.

I had one on a pistol and as much time as it took to sight it in and then realizing that the aim point was only good for that distance it became a novelty. If it gives others confidence and they train with it, then more power to them.

Exactly. From my practical experience as an RSO and participating in MANY training sessions, the average person is slower and a worse shot when trying to aim with a laser. Plain and simple. When the batteries fail or the emitter craps out, those same shooters are dead in the water.

Tacticool Operator Neckbeard Status notwithstanding.


I'll say it again, do whatever works for you.

 

[Kruel J]

On a lighter note (get it?)

3:00 mark.

 

[titsonritz]

It cracks me up how many people want to talk smack about lasers and do not own, let alone train, with them.

POA/POI and co-witness do not (or should not) have anything to do with lasers as it will create a converging zero, lasers should be set up with a parallel zero.

Bottom line, lasers are no more of a talisman against evil than the weapon itself, they are simply another tool in the tool box. Laser are meant to augment iron sights and optics not replace them, none of which will reach full potential without training and practice.

 

[Kruel J]

It cracks me up how many people want to talk smack about lasers and do not own, let alone train, with them.

POA/POI and co-witness do not (or should not) have anything to do with lasers as it will create a converging zero, lasers should be set up with a parallel zero.

Bottom line, lasers are no more of a talisman against evil than the weapon itself, they are simply another tool in the tool box. Laser are meant to augment iron sights and optics not replace them, none of which will reach full potential without training and practice.

I think the "smack talk" comes from the number of people that buy a gun and rely on the laser to hit the target without any further training. I personally am not against lasers at all. I'm against all the marketing that makes people think they are "necessary" and the best/only way to shoot a handgun.

 

[Nightvisionary]

You're not being blunt. You are becoming obtuse now in the face of personal revelation with another twist of condescension for measure.

"Ballistics" (Outside forces acting on a projectile) is all about curves and trajectories...
Not the topic here.


Peace.

View attachment 768417

I think I have plainly demonstrated that we reached and gone beyond the limits of your knowledge and understanding on this concept and discussion. The rest of the class gets it and that's all that really matters. I will just chalk this up before dismissing the class.

 

[CRBMoA]

Calculators are cool and useful, but if you can't do long division by hand, well...........................................................................?

 

[EHJ]

I apologize for being blunt but I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about. To look at a ballistics table with inputs for bore axis offsets, zero ranges, and bullet drop and to not understand the direct relationship to the subject at hand demonstrates that. Lasers do not have true parallax as the beam does not shift regardless of the shooters position.

You're right I mis-spoke using the term "Parallax Error"
I was incorrect.
My apologies.

But we're still talking converging straight lines here - not ballistics.

Edit: Cute post.