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I could also set my sights in on 100-200 yards. It sounds like a farmer or rancher with 1,000's of pesky critters in the field needs to take up handloading out of economic necessity. If I ever get a Colt AR-15 with a govt. profile barrel, at $1,100+ retail, I want to make the damn most out of every dollar spent for that sucker right out of the box. Using expensive match ammo to blast pesky little rodents seems ridiculous.

Mr. GunBlue debunks the lie that a light-profile barrel is necessarily inaccurate.


I think you're messing with me now.

Set your sights at 200yds. Factory group of say 6-7". Ground squirrel dimensions of 1.5" - 2" wide, 5"-6" tall. See the problem?

Landowners get others to shoot their squeaks. People even pay them for the opportunity. Therefore, landowners don't NEED to handload and most don't have the time.

Match ammo may not buy the typical AR15 owner much in the way of accuracy. Unlike handloading that can be custom tuned to what a particular gun likes. If going with match ammo, one would have to buy a lot of diff brands and loads and test them to see what the gun likes.

So, you are talking about AR15 and you post a vid about .257 Woberts out of a bolt action rifle. This makes sense to you???
 
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True Mil. Spec ammo should be able to preform the task at hand, weather it's bustin squeaks, or two legged varmints, personally, I prefer the 55 Gr Varminators on squeaks and other pests! Down at my ranch, we have prairie dogs, YUGE dog towns, and spendy ammo isn't in the cards, but sure makes practice with other rifles fun, seeing a .338 mist a Squeaky Pup at 1200 meters changa ya man! Been known to run the safe dry bustin dogs several days in a row, takes several nights to clean all the rifles, but damn, it's a hoot!
 
I think you're messing with me now.

Set your sights at 200yds. Factory group of say 6-7". Ground squirrel dimensions of 1.5" - 2" wide, 5"-6" tall. See the problem?

Landowners get others to shoot their squeaks. People even pay them for the opportunity. Therefore, landowners don't NEED to handload and most don't have the time.

Match ammo may not buy the typical AR15 owner much in the way of accuracy. Unlike handloading that can be custom tuned to what a particular gun likes.

So, you are talking about AR15 and you post a vid about .257 Woberts out of a bolt action rifle. This makes sense to you???
The point of the Woberts video was to bear witness that an HBAR barrel might not be necessary to take squeaks at a reasonable distance. What MOA do you think cheap bulk 5.56 ammo normally groups at? 1"? I'm not here to mess with people's heads but like Rush Limbaugh I'm in the relentless pursuit of the ballistics truth when it comes to guns. I believe that if .257 Roberts can shoot at sub-MOA, even the cheapest 5.56 ammo should punch MOA on paper given that 5.56 is highly renowned for being flat-shooting. I've heard gun writers blast .257 Roberts for being inaccurate as a cartridge. If an AR-15 with even cheap imported ammo could get into a shooting match with that pretty Winchester bolt deer rifle in .257 Roberts, I'd be tickled pink. If cheap 5.56 could punch MOA I would still be happy.


" I use cheap 55-grain FMJ loads for the early break-in phase of my 5.56 NATO-barreled guns and occasionally I see accuracy in the ½ to ¾ minute of angle (MOA) range at 100 yards. "
 
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So OP,

Not bustin your chops but tossing out ideas.

1. If you want an AR for HD then I would build a gun just for that not a hybrid that does both ok and not great...

2. I get not wanting to buy a separate upper (even though that would probably be ideal if you're stuck on an AR for both).

3. Have you thought about buying a bolt gun in a caliber that is less out of stock right now (and cheaper) and would have the ballistic capabilities to reach way out and get your ground rats? I haven't personally looked for such a gun but know there is some Ammo out there right now that is a lot cheaper then 5.56 and will allow you to permanently leave a scope on it??

I'd rather have 2 purpose specific rifles personally.
 
Interesting....
None of the M16A1's , A2's , CAR-15's or M4 Carbines that I was issued or remember seeing , had :
Colt AR15 , stamped on them...but its been awhile since I was in the Army.

Be that as it may....
We zeroed our M16A1's , A2's , CAR-15's and M4 Carbines at 25 yards...but shot and qualified with them out to 300 meters...on what was commonly called the "pop-up" range.
The above mentioned rifles were iron sighted , no optics were commonly used on the M16 series , expecting the occasional night vision scope.
I was in the Infantry and often was assigned to a LRRP / LRSD unit....so we did get see and use some more upper end items....but again...optics at that time were uncommon.

When I had good eyes....the 300 meter distance was a good practical limit with the 5.56 round and the issued iron sights on the M16 series of rifles and carbines.

As for as your questions #2 and #4
It depends...

On my AR the detachable sight / carry mount will hold its zero....
With that said...I no longer use it....I use a Daniel Defense A1 style rear sight.
I would guess that some carry handle sights will retain a zero...and others will not.

As for ammo and accuracy....again it depends...
Use what your rifle likes and what you shoot best with.
You will have to try out different brands and styles of ammo .
This will require lots of practice and range time to see what does indeed work for you.
Andy
You know Andy, I really like the AR's but my original M-16 was so unreliable that I was almost afraid to carry it. We were told that it was a bore issue and then an ammunition issue. They said keep it clean and it will never fail you. Uh,....except they didn't issue cleaning kits with them. I ordered mine from Sears Roebuck and Co. It was just a .22 cleaning kit. Every guy in my squad used it. Sometimes when you're in the field, you just can't get it clean 'cause you were too busy "humpin'" or "sweeping." I was once reprimanded for trying to carry an AK47 that I found. I had more confidence in it than I did my own. My platoon Sgt. reminded me that we usually shot at the sound since you couldn't see the VC and since I would "sound" like the VC, mom would get that telegram saying your boy was killed because he was an idiot! Eventually, they fixed the problem and reliability was restored. Right now I have a S&W M&P AR II. Me likee plenty!
 
The point of the Woberts video was to bear witness that an HBAR barrel might not be necessary to take squeaks at a reasonable distance. What MOA do you think cheap bulk 5.56 ammo normally groups at? 1"? I'm not here to mess with pele's heads but like Rush Limbaugh I'm in the relentless pursuit of the ballistics truth when it comes to guns. I believe that if .257 Roberts can shoot at sub-MOA, even the cheapest 5.56 ammo should punch MOA on paper given that 5.56 is highly renowned for being flat-shooting. I've heard gun writers blast .257 Roberts for being inaccurate as a cartridge. If an AR-15 with even cheap imported ammo could get into a shooting match with that pretty Winchester bolt deer rifle in .257 Roberts, I'd be tickled pink. If cheap 5.56 could punch MOA I would still be happy.

Well, like I said, the gun the I had was provably accurate to .500 at 100 yds. However, ALL the commercial ammo I tried in it grouped anywhere from 5" 5shot groups for surplus ammo or russian ammo :eek:, to 2-3" groups for federal, winchester, etc. I'm too lazy to compute MOA that equals for you (edit: That would be 2MOA to 3MOA, so 4"-6" groups at 200yds, and 6"-9" groups at 300yds, and that is for typical commercial ammo, not the cheap Russian stuff), but if the best one can do with commercial ammo out of the typical production AR, then the 6-7" group that I imagined at 200yds can't be too far off. I've read some AR15 forums, and 2-3" at 100yds is typical for commercial ammo and the typical production AR.

The standard AR is not known for accuracy. And yes there is a diff between them and a typical production bolt action rifle. Barrel profile may not make a huge diff... but ammo does.

My buddy had a Rem 700 in .257 Roberts... It was very accurate and also very pleasant to shoot. Any ding on the .257Bob would be related to it being a medium power cartridge (muzzle energy), and therefore limited. Tho people have used it for elk, IMO it is best suited to deer hunting.
 
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True Mil. Spec ammo should be able to preform the task at hand, weather it's bustin squeaks, or two legged varmints, personally, I prefer the 55 Gr Varminators on squeaks and other pests! Down at my ranch, we have prairie dogs, YUGE dog towns, and spendy ammo isn't in the cards, but sure makes practice with other rifles fun, seeing a .338 mist a Squeaky Pup at 1200 meters changa ya man! Been known to run the safe dry bustin dogs several days in a row, takes several nights to clean all the rifles, but damn, it's a hoot!

IDK, all I know about ammo is my own experience buying some to shoot in my varmint AR. My pistol AR cares not!!

I've shot more than my share of Rockchucks with my AR and back when with my Ruger #1 22-250. I consider those things to be worth the expense of CF ammo. Never gonna convince me that grounds squirrels at 300yds with factory ammo and the typical production AR is going to be anything but a waste of time and money.
 
Well, like I said, the gun the I had was provably accurate to .500 at 100 yds. However, ALL the commercial ammo I tried in it grouped anywhere from 5" 5shot groups for surplus ammo or russian ammo, to 2-3" groups for federal, winchester, etc. I'm too lazy to compute MOA that equals for you, but if the best one can do with commercial ammo out of the typical production AR, then the 6-7" group that I imagined at 200yds can't be too far off. I've read some AR15 forums, and 2-3" at 100yds is typical for commercial ammo and the typical production AR.

The standard AR is not known for accuracy. And yes there is a diff between them and a typical production bolt action rifle. Barrel profile may not make a huge diff... but ammo does.

My buddy had a Rem 700 in .257 Roberts... It was very accurate and also very pleasant to shoot.
bbbass, I never realized that 5.56 was so inherently inaccurate .... are these giant AR groups a product of using iron sights or a scope?

If a new Colt AR-15 is so grossly over MOA, it seems it might be just a waste of money.
 
You know Andy, I really like the AR's but my original M-16 was so unreliable that I was almost afraid to carry it. We were told that it was a bore issue and then an ammunition issue. They said keep it clean and it will never fail you. Uh,....except they didn't issue cleaning kits with them. I ordered mine from Sears Roebuck and Co. It was just a .22 cleaning kit. Every guy in my squad used it. Sometimes when you're in the field, you just can't get it clean 'cause you were too busy "humpin'" or "sweeping." I was once reprimanded for trying to carry an AK47 that I found. I had more confidence in it than I did my own. My platoon Sgt. reminded me that we usually shot at the sound since you couldn't see the VC and since I would "sound" like the VC, mom would get that telegram saying your boy was killed because he was an idiot! Eventually, they fixed the problem and reliability was restored. Right now I have a S&W M&P AR II. Me likee plenty!

I have heard stories of the unreliability of the early M16 rifles...as well as the ammunition issues....
Most of my NCO"S that took me under their wings and taught me just how to be a Sergeant....had combat experience in Vietnam...
I am glad that they and you , made it home.

My experiences with the M16A1 , A2 CAR-15 and M4 Carbines...seem to be more positive.
Of the above mentioned firearms I prefer the M16A2 and CAR-15....
My favorite rifle that I was issued and used , however was my M21 rifle....:D

My AR is one that I put together....it works...and does what it needs to do....
I do like those S&W M&P II ...and yeah you are right...plenty there to like....:D
Andy
 
bblass, I never realized that 5.56 was so inherently inaccurate .... are these giant AR groups a product of using iron sights or a scope?

Not sure if it's the AR rifle or the 5.56 available ammo. But I do know that .223 was used with great success for varmints in bolt action rifles. So.......

Most report using iron sights, but mine was with a 12x scope and a 3.5# trigger. The typical LPK gritty trigger at 10-12# is going to make it even harder to be accurate.

If you really want to shoot squeaks at 200-300yds, IMO you need a custom AR. Not sure you want to spend the extra $$$ considering you're wanting a general purpose rifle. But one out of the box should be fine for larger varmints and yotes if you tune the ammo to the gun.
 
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Not sure if it's the AR rifle or the 5.56 available ammo. But I do know that .223 was used with great success for varmints in bolt action rifles. So.......

Most report using iron sights, but mine was with a 12x scope and a 3.5# trigger. The typical LPK gritty trigger at 10-12# is going to make it even harder to be accurate.

If you really want to shoot squeaks at 200-300yds, IMO you need a custom AR. Not sure you want to spend the extra $$$ considering you're wanting a general purpose rifle. But one out of the box should be fine for larger varmints and yotes if you tune the ammo to the gun.
I mainly want an out-of-the-box Colt AR-15 because it looks cool and "Colt AR-15" sounds cool. But it's becoming apparent by what people are posting here that "this ain't no squirrel gun". Do I really need an AR-15 for when "s__ hits the fan"? I already have a 12 ga. Remington 870 police pump and 25 rounds of shotgun shells.

If it truly stinks as a small-varmint rifle, what are the real reasons American citizens need a stock AR-15 then? New bolt-action rifles costing a fraction of an AR-15 routinely print MOA or sub-MOA groups these days. When one plunks down 11 to 12 hundred dollars for a new AR, what is he really getting and for what practical purposes?
 
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what are the real reasons American citizens need a stock AR-15 then?
Why does one need a reason....?
A AR15 is just a rifle....It does what a rifle was designed to do....
Accurately place a projectile on a target.

Own what you want....that is one of the most important aspects of the 2nd Amendment.
It says in part :
"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms , shall not be infringed ."
Note that it does not say :
"...then right of the people to keep and bear Arms , of these types and for these reasons , shall not be infringed."

The reasons for owning a AR15 are as varied as the folks that own them....
And each reason is good enough....'cause none are truly needed to be accepted by anyone else.
Andy
 
I mainly want an out-of-the-box Colt AR-15 because it looks cool and "Colt AR-15" sounds cool. But it's becoming apparent by what people are posting here that "this ain't no squirrel gun". Do I really need an AR-15 for when "s__ hits the fan"? I already have a 12 ga. Remington 870 police pump and 25 rounds of shotgun shells.

If it truly stinks as a small-varmint rifle, what are the real reasons American citizens need a stock AR-15 then? New bolt-action rifles costing a fraction of an AR-15 routinely print MOA or sub-MOA groups these days. When one plunks down 11 to 12 hundred dollars for a new AR, what is he really getting and for what practical purposes?

Mmmmm, there was a thread on this recently. I'm not good with our search function so I didn't come up with a link for you... maybe someone will post it up for you.
 
Why does one need a reason....?
A AR15 is just a rifle....It does what a rifle was designed to do....
Accurately place a projectile on a target.

Own what you want....that is one of the most important aspects of the 2nd Amendment.
It says in part :
"...the right of the people to keep and bear Arms , shall not be infringed ."
Note that does not say :
"...then right of the people to keep and bear Arms , of these types and for these reasons , shall not be infringed."

The reasons for owning a AR15 are as varied as the folks that own them.
Andy

Provided the target isn't squirrel-size two football fields downrange according to some here. It's true that the AR-15 was originally conceived for aggressive human-size targets up to 300 meters on a military battlefield. Not to kill them expressly but to wound them to become a PITA to the enemy.

People might think themselves hot s__ for owning an AR-15 but one has to consider practical uses for this rifle as well. A Corvette is a hot-s__ automobile but it's expensive and about as practical as udders on a bull.
 
Provided the target isn't squirrel-size two football fields downrange according to some here. It's true that the AR-15 was originally conceived for aggressive human-size targets up to 300 meters on a military battlefield. Not to kill them expressly but to wound them to become a PITA to the enemy.

I am going to disagree with that last bit.....
An AR15 , as I said before is just a rifle....
Nothing more and nothing less....
A rifle , any rifle , was designed to simply place a projectile on a target accurately.

Now what you are mentioning in your post is how a rifle was used....and to some extent the tactics with its use...
Not what a rifle actually is.....which is what I am talking about.
Andy
 
I am going to disagree with that last bit.....
A AR15 as I said before is just a rifle....
Noting more and nothing less....
A rifle , any rifle , was designed to simply place a projectile on a target accurately.

Now what you are mentioning in your post is how a rifle was used....and to some extent the tactics with its use...
Not what a rifle actually is.....which is what I am talking about.
Andy
It's more important to me what a firearm, rifle or otherwise, can DO than simply what it is.
I'm not considering AR-15 totally based on the "coolness" of its image.
A prudent perspective AR-15 buyer might seriously assess what the AR-15 can do and what it can't do
and weigh out all its pros and cons vs its price tag and the cost
of the ammunition to routinely feed it.

How will the gun serve me personally?

A jet airplane costs millions of dollars new but it makes a horrible bass boat which proper vessel for that use typically retails for under $30K dollars.
 
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It's more important to me what a firearm, rifle or otherwise, can DO than simply what it is.
I'm not considering AR-15 totally based on the "coolness" of its image.
A prudent perspective AR-15 buyer might seriously assess what the AR-15 can do and what it can't do
and weigh out all its pros and cons vs its price tag and the cost
of the ammunition to routinely feed it.

A jet airplane costs millions of dollars new but it makes a horrible bass boat which typically retails for under $30K dollars.
And all that had nothing to with what I have said....
So with that in mind....
Enjoy you time here...and I'll leave you to your thread.
Andy
 
And all that had nothing to with what I have said....
So with that in mind....
Enjoy you time here...and I'll leave you to your thread.
Andy
Andy, what you said helps me none in trying to decide as to whether I should get an AR-15. A rifle is a rifle, but undoubtedly some rifles are better suited to certain purposes than others. Anyway, good bye, sir.

I'm glad I started this thread. People have posted replies and now I'm really starting to feel skeptical about purchasing an AR-15. This whole discussion has turned out to be a humbling experience,. I'm really disappointed to find out the AR-15 is not what I had it cracked up to be but that still beats buyer's remorse. One must use logic and not just emotion when considering a big spend.

I think I'm going to put this AR notion out of my mind for now and seriously consider a bolt-action rifle in a sensible caliber to deal with squeaks in an efficient and economic fashion since I have other suitable weapons (police shotgun, handgun) already for those dreaded "s__ hits the fan" days. I have a good pre-owned Savage Model 99 in .300 Savage for deer on my gun wish list and that'll bust any yote as well.

I will still advocate for the rights of American citizens to own AR-15's. They are easier for many frail people to handle than pistols or 12 ga. shotguns in dangerous situations.
 
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Andy, what you said helps me none in trying to decide as to whether I should get an AR-15. A rifle is a rifle, but undoubtedly some rifles are better suited to certain purposes than others. Anyway, good bye, sir.

I'm glad I started this thread. People have posted replies and now I'm really starting to feel skeptical about purchasing an AR-15. This whole discussion has turned out to be a humbling experience,. I'm really disappointed to find out the AR-15 is not what I had it cracked up to be but that still beats buyer's remorse. One must use logic and not just emotion when considering a big spend.
Don't be too quick to dismiss the AR, just realise that there are many different options geared toward specific tasks! You can buy or build a stunning varmint wackin AR, or you can buy or build a general purpose fairly accurate rifle that can do many things, or you can buy or build a defence oriented rig! Point is, trying to find a happy place between a few of those capabilities might find you in more then one rifle!
 
Don't be too quick to dismiss the AR, just realise that there are many different options geared toward specific tasks! You can buy or build a stunning varmint wackin AR, or you can buy or build a general purpose fairly accurate rifle that can do many things, or you can buy or build a defence oriented rig! Point is, trying to find a happy place between a few of those capabilities might find you in more then one rifle!
Thank you, Ura-Ki, that cool looking classic AR-15A4 I saw listed at Colt website for $1,099 retail is not as versatile as I was hoping or even wishing for it to be. It's undeniably a fantastic defense weapon but as a recreational or vermin-control gun it might be questionable. I don't like the looks of these specialized AR's. I would rather just pay about $650 for a new Weatherby Vanguard for squeak control in a sensible caliber. I will have to consider ammo price and accuracy for the specific varmint caliber a Vanguard is offered in. It might be of economic necessity to handload if one has countless squeaks to deal with constantly.

It seems like cheap .223 Rem. ammo can be had in bulk. The Vanguard Weatherguard is chambered in it. The question is how good will it be for squeaks at what ranges? At the
following link it's as low as .26 cents a round in bulk of 500 count:

 
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