County Messin' with a gun shop/buyers

[mjbskwim]

OK...just a scenario here (names and places withheld to protect the innocent)

So a county Sheriff can't do any more than the state laws say when doing a backround check ,no? (in washington,please)

Say you are the only gun dealer around,and the county makes all checks without a CHL go though DSHS for a mental backround check.

Knowing this is illegal,but it is only effecting YOUR SALES,how would you handle it?
I mean if you were in the pugetropolis,you would have 13280 other dealers to have your back,fight this with you

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[R-Rizzo]

How is this enforced? I'm just curious... Since i'm from "South of the Border" I have no idea how Washington's Laws work.. But I"m just wondering where they come up in the process.

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

Who is doing the check? If it is the sheriff, he's breaking the law. If you are supposed to do it, you can't without breaking the law.

Patients have rights. Lots of rights. Any health care giver that provides private health information to the sheriff without a warrant is going to jail....

 

[nubus]

This seems VERY odd to me. If this is actually occurring you should contact the NRA-ILA immediately.

 

[jdub75]

I would also call your counties DA's office to make sure they are aware the Sherrif is doing this. Possibly illegal; maybe unconstitutional?

 

[mjbskwim]

Yes Yes yes and yes.
But how does one go from having cops as customers to having the department heads pissed at him?
Again,if something is started it is obviously YOU who started it,you're the only player around.

And most regular gun buyers,that I know,have carry permits,so it doesn't effect them.So only random buyers and the ONE shop owner are effected.

Pisses me off.
How does a guy help this out without screwing a shop owner?
PM me for more details if you want.Won't put them here

 

[deadeye]

I would report it now and get the county squared away before they try more similar illegal activities. If they think they can get away with this what will be next.

 

[livewire98801]

Have you tried pointing it out to the Sheriff himself in a casual manner? From what you're describing, it sounds like your hypothetical shop owner might know the hypothetical sheriff personally, just ask the guy over a cuppa.

Agree with One-Eyed Ross as well here. If anyone's releasing patient data to them (even if it's "we've never heard of them") without a court order, they're violating HIPAA with a vengeance.

Also, it might be worth a call to the County legal department. Seems like if you take care of this locally, at least at first, you might not tick off the Good 'ol Boy's club that treats you so well.

Hypothetically.

 

[PhysicsGuy]

Whoever the owner is, should talk to their lawyer (or find one who knows the topic), and if it something that they shouldnt legally be providing to the sheriff, they should simply tell the sheriff no, and that it is not legal (with showing the proof). This should be done in a non hostile manner by simply stating why it is not legal, and how it violates the customers rights.

 

[donMiguel]

OK, help the slow kid. I am unaware how the sheriff gets involved or becomes aware in the state of Wa... You fill out your 4473, and the FFL calls NICCS, and if no issues, the deal is done, no coordination or notification of local LEO. No?

Exceptions including personal ownership of suppressor, rather than trust ownership, where chief LEO sign-off is required?

We do not yet have a national mental health db, and the LEO has no legal access to mental health records, outside of some court orders, and many of those records are sealed as well.

 

[TCOV]

Background checks are done through the federal system and local leo is only notified after the sale of a handgun and he is to bump it up to the state level as I understand it. No local leo involvement in a longarm purchase. I have sent you a PM asking further details. I do have a ccp and my dealer says he notifies local leo after the sale of a handgun I believe by mail. The situation you describe is not clear. Are you talking about a state other than WA?
Sorry I didn't see Washington in the original post. Now it really doesn't make sense.

 

[PhysicsGuy]

I believe the OP is stating that the sheriff has asked the gun shop to make all background checks (who dont have a CHL) go through a mental check at DSHS (as well as the standard NICS check)

 

[deen_ad]

Sheriff can't require it and DSHS info is private. If the Sheriff is getting the info that's illegal, if the shop owner is getting it that's also illegal!

 

[One-Eyed Ross]

Which ever way it goes, there are serious consequences for violating patient privacy. SERIOUS consequences. Having worked for health care agencies before, in a previous lifetime, I can tell you that the punishment for the provider of the information can be quite severe (financially and criminally).

Additionally, the State of Washington is the sole regulator of firearms laws in the state of Washington. Any "extra" things that the Sheriff is asking for outside of State law are not enforceable, at least to my understanding of "pre-emption"....

 

[livewire98801]

Additionally, the State of Washington is the sole regulator of firearms laws in the state of Washington. Any "extra" things that the Sheriff is asking for outside of State law are not enforceable, at least to my understanding of "pre-emption"....

As much as I want this to be right, doesn't preemption only cover carry and possession?

 

[TCOV]

Well the gunshop ffl would have no authority to do that and DSHS would probably refuse their request. If the sheriff is making the request from DSHS because of a handgun purchase he is probably outside his authority unless there has been a change in the regulations from the legislature and I have not heard of one, doesn't mean there wasn't a change but there are some pretty good watchdogs regarding gun control and no one brought it up. mjbskwim needs to clarify if he is talking about Washington State or onother state. There is not enough information here to make a judgement.
Sorry I didn't see Washington in the op unless there has been an edit.

 

[deen_ad]

As much as I want this to be right, doesn't preemption only cover carry and possession?

Here's the law:

RCW 9.41.290
State preemption.


The state of Washington hereby fully occupies and preempts the entire field of firearms regulation within the boundaries of the state, including the registration, licensing, possession, purchase, sale, acquisition, transfer, discharge, and transportation of firearms, or any other element relating to firearms or parts thereof, including ammunition and reloader components. Cities, towns, and counties or other municipalities may enact only those laws and ordinances relating to firearms that are specifically authorized by state law, as in RCW 9.41.300, and are consistent with this chapter. Such local ordinances shall have the same penalty as provided for by state law. Local laws and ordinances that are inconsistent with, more restrictive than, or exceed the requirements of state law shall not be enacted and are preempted and repealed, regardless of the nature of the code, charter, or home rule status of such city, town, county, or municipality.

And RCW 9.41.300:

RCW 9.41.300
Weapons prohibited in certain places — Local laws and ordinances — Exceptions — Penalty.



*** CHANGE IN 2011 *** (SEE 1041-S.SL) ***

(1) It is unlawful for any person to enter the following places when he or she knowingly possesses or knowingly has under his or her control a weapon:

(a) The restricted access areas of a jail, or of a law enforcement facility, or any place used for the confinement of a person (i) arrested for, charged with, or convicted of an offense, (ii) held for extradition or as a material witness, or (iii) otherwise confined pursuant to an order of a court, except an order under chapter 13.32A or 13.34 RCW. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress or ingress open to the general public;

(b) Those areas in any building which are used in connection with court proceedings, including courtrooms, jury rooms, judge's chambers, offices and areas used to conduct court business, waiting areas, and corridors adjacent to areas used in connection with court proceedings. The restricted areas do not include common areas of ingress and egress to the building that is used in connection with court proceedings, when it is possible to protect court areas without restricting ingress and egress to the building. The restricted areas shall be the minimum necessary to fulfill the objective of this subsection (1)(b).

For purposes of this subsection (1)(b), "weapon" means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or any weapon of the kind usually known as slung shot, sand club, or metal knuckles, or any knife, dagger, dirk, or other similar weapon that is capable of causing death or bodily injury and is commonly used with the intent to cause death or bodily injury.

In addition, the local legislative authority shall provide either a stationary locked box sufficient in size for pistols and key to a weapon owner for weapon storage, or shall designate an official to receive weapons for safekeeping, during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building. The locked box or designated official shall be located within the same building used in connection with court proceedings. The local legislative authority shall be liable for any negligence causing damage to or loss of a weapon either placed in a locked box or left with an official during the owner's visit to restricted areas of the building.

The local judicial authority shall designate and clearly mark those areas where weapons are prohibited, and shall post notices at each entrance to the building of the prohibition against weapons in the restricted areas;

(c) The restricted access areas of a public mental health facility certified by the department of social and health services for inpatient hospital care and state institutions for the care of the mentally ill, excluding those facilities solely for evaluation and treatment. Restricted access areas do not include common areas of egress and ingress open to the general public;

(d) That portion of an establishment classified by the state liquor control board as off-limits to persons under twenty-one years of age; or

(e) The restricted access areas of a commercial service airport designated in the airport security plan approved by the federal transportation security administration, including passenger screening checkpoints at or beyond the point at which a passenger initiates the screening process. These areas do not include airport drives, general parking areas and walkways, and shops and areas of the terminal that are outside the screening checkpoints and that are normally open to unscreened passengers or visitors to the airport. Any restricted access area shall be clearly indicated by prominent signs indicating that firearms and other weapons are prohibited in the area.

(2) Cities, towns, counties, and other municipalities may enact laws and ordinances:

(a) Restricting the discharge of firearms in any portion of their respective jurisdictions where there is a reasonable likelihood that humans, domestic animals, or property will be jeopardized. Such laws and ordinances shall not abridge the right of the individual guaranteed by Article I, section 24 of the state Constitution to bear arms in defense of self or others; and

(b) Restricting the possession of firearms in any stadium or convention center, operated by a city, town, county, or other municipality, except that such restrictions shall not apply to:

(i) Any pistol in the possession of a person licensed under RCW 9.41.070 or exempt from the licensing requirement by RCW 9.41.060; or

(ii) Any showing, demonstration, or lecture involving the exhibition of firearms.

(3)(a) Cities, towns, and counties may enact ordinances restricting the areas in their respective jurisdictions in which firearms may be sold, but, except as provided in (b) of this subsection, a business selling firearms may not be treated more restrictively than other businesses located within the same zone. An ordinance requiring the cessation of business within a zone shall not have a shorter grandfather period for businesses selling firearms than for any other businesses within the zone.

(b) Cities, towns, and counties may restrict the location of a business selling firearms to not less than five hundred feet from primary or secondary school grounds, if the business has a storefront, has hours during which it is open for business, and posts advertisements or signs observable to passersby that firearms are available for sale. A business selling firearms that exists as of the date a restriction is enacted under this subsection (3)(b) shall be grandfathered according to existing law.

(4) Violations of local ordinances adopted under subsection (2) of this section must have the same penalty as provided for by state law.

(5) The perimeter of the premises of any specific location covered by subsection (1) of this section shall be posted at reasonable intervals to alert the public as to the existence of any law restricting the possession of firearms on the premises.

(6) Subsection (1) of this section does not apply to:

(a) A person engaged in military activities sponsored by the federal or state governments, while engaged in official duties;

(b) Law enforcement personnel, except that subsection (1)(b) of this section does apply to a law enforcement officer who is present at a courthouse building as a party to an action under chapter 10.14, 10.99, or 26.50 RCW, or an action under Title 26 RCW where any party has alleged the existence of domestic violence as defined in RCW 26.50.010; or

(c) Security personnel while engaged in official duties.

(7) Subsection (1)(a) of this section does not apply to a person licensed pursuant to RCW 9.41.070 who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises or checks his or her firearm. The person may reclaim the firearms upon leaving but must immediately and directly depart from the place or facility.

(8) Subsection (1)(c) of this section does not apply to any administrator or employee of the facility or to any person who, upon entering the place or facility, directly and promptly proceeds to the administrator of the facility or the administrator's designee and obtains written permission to possess the firearm while on the premises.

(9) Subsection (1)(d) of this section does not apply to the proprietor of the premises or his or her employees while engaged in their employment.

(10) Any person violating subsection (1) of this section is guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

(11) "Weapon" as used in this section means any firearm, explosive as defined in RCW 70.74.010, or instrument or weapon listed in RCW 9.41.250.

 

[livewire98801]

The situation you describe is not clear. Are you talking about a state other than WA?

mjbskwim needs to clarify if he is talking about Washington State or onother state. There is not enough information here to make a judgement.

Come on guys, have I got to do all the work?
:huh:

So a county Sheriff can't do any more than the state laws say when doing a backround check ,no? (in washington,please)

 

[deen_ad]

Well the gunshop ffl would have no authority to do that and DSHS would probably refuse their request. If the sheriff is making the request from DSHS because of a handgun purchase he is probably outside his authority unless there has been a change in the regulations from the legislature and I have not heard of one, doesn't mean there wasn't a change but there are some pretty good watchdogs regarding gun control and no one brought it up. mjbskwim needs to clarify if he is talking about Washington State or onother state. There is not enough information here to make a judgement.

OP's original post states "(in washington,please)"
So I would assume he means in Washington State.

 

[mjbskwim]

This is in Washington.Again I'm asking this and not the shop owner,so don't really want to put too many details out.

Yeah I got mad instead of asking him how the FU...heck the county got involved anyway.
So a guy walks in and asks if he's been OKed yet.(no carry permit)
"no and the sheriff's office isn't open today,so come back Tuesday"
The kid leaves and shop owner says the local sheriff sends the names out for some mental eval at DSHS
WHAT? THAT"S ILLEGAL I say
He says he don't know how to handle it without pissing them off and further screwing his business

I really hope nobody from the county is reading this,as I just wanted to know how a guy can challenge this without loosing his license and livelihood.
Kind of like he needs a buyer to go through this and start the process,challenging the county.
Yeah I'm still wondering how the county got their hands in it.

do Miguel,as far as I know you are correct.I have never heard of such a thing anywhere else