Cops Out of Control, John And Martha King Held At Police Gunpoint???

[Contract_Pilot]

AVwebFlash Complete Issue

Aviation's most prominent husband and wife team is calling on government agencies to keep their databases up to date and warning pilots and aircraft owners they could be next to be surrounded by heavily armed police, handcuffed and detained because of a bit of miscommunication. John and Martha King say there's a lesson to be learned after they spent about 30 scary minutes in the custody of Santa Barbara, Calif., police at the Santa Barbara Airport Saturday. Authorities thought their leased Cessna 172 was a Cessna 150 that had been stolen eight years previously in Texas. The 172, which is owned by Cessna Aircraft, was assigned the N-number of the stolen 150 in 2009, years after the FAA had cancelled that registration on the 150. Apparently no one told the El Paso Intelligence Center, an arm of the Drug Enforcement Agency, and other government departments that keeps tabs on, among other things, flights of stolen aircraft. When the Kings filed IFR for their flight from San Diego to meet friends in Santa Barbara, the local police were alerted to intercept the aircraft when it landed. As Martha King told us in the accompanying podcast, what followed was, in her opinion, unnecessarily dangerous and uncomfortable.

King says they were approached by police prepared for the worst, with guns drawn and others taking cover behind the doors of the four police cars that responded. Although anyone who has met the Kings would describe them as anything but threatening in appearance and demeanor, the police took no chances and maintained their aggressive stance through the ordeal. "I would have thought at that point when they got us out it would have ratcheted down quite a bit because I don't think we exactly look like your typical airplane thief," she said. The Kings were not hurt and the airplane was not damaged. The police did not apologize but did justify their actions by saying it was a report that had to be checked out, King said. The Kings said they went public with their experience in hopes that law enforcement agencies will double-check stolen aircraft reports and to warn pilots that there's a chance their N-number could come up under similar circumstances.


FAA Database...
FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Inquiry

Read More

 

[2506]

This reminds me of Ronald Reagan: Trust But Verify. I don't think law enforcement was out of line, just being cautious.

 

[Contract_Pilot]

This reminds me of Ronald Reagan: Trust But Verify. I don't think law enforcement was out of line, just being cautious.

Why, they should have investigated a little..

 

[Trlsmn]

This reminds me of Ronald Reagan: Trust But Verify. I don't think law enforcement was out of line, just being cautious.

+1 this was a clerical mistake not a police mistake, the police did the right thing with the information they had.

 

[Contract_Pilot]

+1 this was a clerical mistake not a police mistake, the police did the right thing with the information they had.

I disagree this situation was out of hand in my opinion.

Law enforcement and the general public has access to the current FAA database and it can be downloaded. Your N Number is like your license plate number. They should have spent 2min looking and verifying the info before acting and they had the time. I know I and most others would be upset if we were detained in this manor because the authority's did not update or even check the registration database.

FlightAware > N50545

FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Results

You will see at the bottom that it says Deregistered Aircraft and it;s the 150... they talk about.

Aircraft Description

Serial Number 172S10889 Type Registration Corporation
Manufacturer Name CESSNA Certificate Issue Date 01/23/2009
Model 172S Status Valid
Type Aircraft Fixed Wing Single-Engine Type Engine Reciprocating
Pending Number Change None Dealer No
Date Change Authorized None Mode S Code 51447605
MFR Year 2009 Fractional Owner NO
Registered Owner

Name CESSNA AIRCRAFT CO
Street 1 CESSNA BLVD

City INDEPENDENCE State KANSAS
County MONTGOMERY Zip Code 67301-9060
Country UNITED STATES
Airworthiness

Engine Manufacturer LYCOMING Classification Standard
Engine Model IO-360-L2A Category Normal
A/W Date 01/13/2009

This is the most current Airworthiness Certificate data, however, it may not reflect the current aircraft configuration. For that information, see the aircraft record. A copy can be obtained at Http://aircraft.faa.gov/e.gov/ND/airrecordsND.asp

Other Owner Names

None

Temporary Certificate

None

Fuel Modifications

None


Deregistered Aircraft

Deregistered Aircraft 1 of 1
Aircraft Description
Serial Number 15069387 Type Registration Corporation
Manufacturer Name CESSNA Certificate Issue Date 05/09/2001
Model 150J Mode S Code 51447605
Year Manufacturer 1968 Cancel Date 09/07/2005
Reason for Cancellation Cancelled Export To None
Aircraft Registration prior to Deregistration
Name VENUS AVIATION LLC
Street 10025 EAGLE DR
City MC KINNEY State TEXAS Zip Code 75071-6573
County COLLIN
Country UNITED STATES
Deregistered Airworthiness
Engine Manufacturer CONT MOTOR Classification Standard
Engine Model 17020 Category Utility
A/W Date 09/04/1968
Deregistered Other Owner Names
None

 

[Outrider]

No doubt officer safety is going to be the reason offered to justify this type of thing but it is a "shoot first, ask questions later" kind of approach to law enforcement. That approach will create a lot of problems for police over time. Instead of people supporting police and being willing to work with them we will get people who will want to have nothing to do with them and ultimately without community support that makes police work more difficult and more dangerous.

 

[stompah]

No blame for the FAA for issuing the same N-number? I agree its a bad situation, but the cops though misinformed did their job. The DEA again did their job, sloppy but they did it.

For none of the blame to land on the FAA for reissuing an number belonging to an unrecovered plane... They definitely ruined everyone's day.

 

[MrNiceGuy]

+1 this was a clerical mistake not a police mistake, the police did the right thing with the information they had.

So, because they were so inept and incompetent AND oblivious, they did the right thing?




I also think it's great that they met two innocent old people with enough firepower to throw a coup.
They would rather go in blind and violent then take even the simplest steps to verify their target.

No blame for the FAA for issuing the same N-number? I agree its a bad situation, but the cops though misinformed did their job. The DEA again did their job, sloppy but they did it.

For none of the blame to land on the FAA for reissuing an number belonging to an unrecovered plane... They definitely ruined everyone's day.

They re-issued a trumped up license plate number. It happens every day with cars.
The reason they went after this plane is because the cops and DEA didnt do their job what-so-ever.
It's the direct result of assuming instead of verifying.

When your only reaction involves armored teams carrying fully automatic assault rifles, you better make sure you read the entire license page before you react.

Regardless, these types of para-military actions are out of hand. I've seen police draw down on someone for littering, i've seen armored swat teams invade small headshops because their employees used the word "bong", i've seen rifles aimed at someone who was river diving off of a bridge.
This is just one in a long line of violent overreactions, this one just happens to be based on ignorance as well.

 

[QXSOUP]

The cops should hold Maratha's hairdresser at gunpoint...

 

[drew]

The cops should hold Maratha's hairdresser at gunpoint...

Ba-dump! Seriously folks, try the veal and tip your waitress.

 

[Redcap]

So, because they were so inept and incompetent AND oblivious, they did the right thing?




I also think it's great that they met two innocent old people with enough firepower to throw a coup.
They would rather go in blind and violent then take even the simplest steps to verify their target.






They re-issued a trumped up license plate number. It happens every day with cars.
The reason they went after this plane is because the cops and DEA didnt do their job what-so-ever.
It's the direct result of assuming instead of verifying.

When your only reaction involves armored teams carrying fully automatic assault rifles, you better make sure you read the entire license page before you react.

Regardless, these types of para-military actions are out of hand. I've seen police draw down on someone for littering, i've seen armored swat teams invade small headshops because their employees used the word "bong", i've seen rifles aimed at someone who was river diving off of a bridge.
This is just one in a long line of violent overreactions, this one just happens to be based on ignorance as well.

Agreed.

 

[Trlsmn]

For the people who think the cops were wrong and should have checked it out, who do you think alerted the cops that it was a stolen plane? The FAA?

Here is the FAA database report, do you see anywhere that you can differentiate stolen from not stolen?

FAA Registry - Aircraft - N-Number Results

Never let emotions cloud the issue.










Those pictures look like a reasonable handling of the situation by police that were called in to a stolen plane incident.

I fail to see where the police went wrong, please enlighten me.

Call me crazy but what if John And Martha King had taken the steps to check out the plane themselves?

BTW the OP's comment of "surrounded by heavily armed police" is quite an overstatement and amounts to sensationalism, as you can see the statement makes it sound like a SWAT team in full kit took them down hard when in reality there are three police officers with side arms, I've seen more cops at a domestic dispute at the neighbors house.

 

[gearhead]

I've been in the same situation as the police in this case. When I was stationed in Miami, we received a report of a stolen vessel. 99 times out of 100, people who steal yachts are open for business. When we intercepted the vessel and boarded it, you bet your *** weapons were drawn. As it turns out, we received some false information. I apologized to the man on the business end of my 870, and he accepted that apology. It was not a good situation for any parties involved. At the end of the day, I have a family to go home to. I'll act on the information I'm given, and maintain situational awareness as things progress - that's about as good as it gets. Just because a LEO goes into a situation with a weapon drawn does not mean he or she is overreacting or using excessive force. Sometimes it's just necessary for officer safety until all the details are confirmed one way or the other. Before you "jump the gun" and point a finger at the cops, try putting yourself in their shoes and think long and hard about what you would do in their situation. So many of us would never think twice about drawing our weapons if we felt our lives threatened as a civilian, but seem quick to deny that same right to the police.

 

[Contract_Pilot]

Trlsmn,

It was not the FAA that reported it stolen. It was the El Paso Intelligence Center that did the report from an outdated database. Now If the El Paso Intelligence Center would have updated their database or verified the data they would have found that the 150 was deregistered years ago and the registration number was reassigned to another aircraft of a different model.

This is like having a plate number in some database for an old F150 that was reported stolen canceled then reissued to a newer F250 years later and not updated in the reporters database and the cops not even running the plate to see who it is registered to currently or verifying that it was a F150 before the stop.

So, with your statement would it be the driver of the F250 to make sure the plate number was ever reported stolen and is some outdated database as such? I do not think so?

Now, if the police would have done their job and looked it up on the FAA database to see the registration of the aircraft as they do with a car they would have found out it was not the Cessna 150 they were looking for or called to investigate but a newly manufactured Cessna 172 with a different owner.

The FAA database shows the 150 registration as canceled.

"Reason for Cancellation: Cancelled"

As for the 172?
"Certificate Issue Date 01/23/2009"
"Status Valid"

Now if this was a car and they stopped it without running the registration "plate" or verifying make and model because they got a report that it was stolen from some agency I am sure the person would be upset at the police and it would made headline news.

I am sure this could have been handled in a more civil manor instead of forcing them out of the aircraft at gunpoint.

If police are going to be enforcing aviation I think they need to have the training in dealing with aircraft as this could have turned in to a really bad situation not only for the King's but others and other property on the airport.

I am willing to bet most police department's and/or most police officer's don't even know how to look up an aircraft registration? And their ignorance shows asking to see a VIN?

The King's are wealthy law abiding people and I am sure this if not the end of the story. Using incorrect information to wrongfully arrest or detain someone at gun point is really out of control.

And the pilots do check the paperwork, as required by the FAA to fly us pilots have to verify we have these documents on the plane?

A - Airworthiness certificate
R - Registration
R - Radio license (only need for international travel)
O - Pilots operating handbook (POH)
W - Weight and balance

 

[Contract_Pilot]

A post I did a long time ago... About another incident..

Read the <broken link removed>

Posted from another forum

I've probably been under more hostile fire than the vast majority of LEOs; maybe some of the current vets that are LEOs have been shot at as much as I have been. I've been shot at many times and not returned fire while trying to determine if I was receiving friendly or enemy fire so as to not hurt friendlies (automatic weapon fire at that). These folks they need to be reasonable and take into account these could be innocent folks!

Let's see: the police knew the plane was arriving and it had been on an IFR flight plane (nothing suspicious there). They could have asked anyone at the FBO or a line boy to verify aircraft type and they didn't. The could have checked the aircraft database and didn't.
They arranged with tower to have the plane taxi over to a specified area where they could have made arrangements to be behind cover and direct the occupants to exit the aircraft so they could be observed to not be armed.

Just what did the occupants do to deserve having deadly force directed at them?

I'm sorry, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Had they not gone where directed; not complied with instructions or had the police not had time to set up before they came, it could be a bit different, but the police held all the cards and could have set up in a manner that avoided this from what has been provided.

Heck, they have several weapons, I'm sure vests, and cover; they didn't need to assault these innocent folks.

Get out of the plane with your hands up (of where ever the LEOs wanted) is all that was needed while the police were in covered, defensive positions.

I just don't buy it. I know LEOs are under a lot of stress, but incidents like this just shouldn't occur. They can leave lasting emotional harm on those threatened. What if there were kids in that plane?

.

 

[Russianfist]

CP I disagree with your original post here. Bad information leads cops being called to investigate a crime involving a plane. we all know that things in aviation are different since 9/11 so we take no chances. Also, being that close to the border of mexico they are always looking for smugglers or a flying bomb in 150's,172's,Cherokee's and so on.

So, why are you pissed at the cops for doing their job?

Quote:" I am sure this could have been handled in a more civil manor instead of forcing them out of the aircraft at gunpoint".

Dude! Really? They would have done the very same thing if it were a car. Doesn't matter if they little old people or not.

Quote: "The King's are wealthy law abiding people and I am sure this if not the end of the story. Using incorrect information to wrongfully arrest or detain someone at gun point is really out of control".

Are you saying that because they are rich they are above all this nonsence?

Quote: "I am willing to bet most police department's and/or most police officer's don't even know how to look up an aircraft registration? And their ignorance shows asking to see a VIN?"

I know a police dispatcher that would have this info in minutes.

Please don't take this the wrong way and I will refrain from any personal attacks but you really don't know what the heck you're talking about.:nuts:

No offence.

 

[Contract_Pilot]

I know a police dispatcher that would have this info in minutes.

Please don't take this the wrong way and I will refrain from any personal attacks but you really don't know what the heck you're talking about.:nuts:

No offence.

Then why did the dispatcher not look the info up or verify it instead of just taking big brothers word they had the time! If they looked the info up they would have seen that it was not a 150 but a 172 I think they still should have investigated a little, If they did a little investigation possibly 10 min could have handled it without the threat of deadly force.

If this was a car the police would have run the license plate! I bet if the license plate came back clear they would not have used a threat of deadly force.

Since the info was given to them by government intelligence agency shouldn't the intelligence agency have kept an updated database.

According to <broken link removed>

The Cessna 172 was detained a year-and-a-half ago in Wichita for the same reason, and John King wonders why Epic doesn't have a system to remove stolen aircraft and check them against the FAA registry.

"When you file IFR you're telling who you are, what time you'll arrive, where you're going," he said. "Is this how you would behave if you're flying a stolen airplane?"

Yes, we put our name on the flight plan! did they check the flightplan and get the pilots name and info before the stop? I do not think they did!

McCaffrey explained that the Kings were subjected to a standard felony stop procedure because the officers had no knowledge about the occupants of the allegedly stolen airplane. "You don't know if they've been kidnapped or forced to fly at gunpoint," he explained.

This statement does not fly as pilots we have ways to communicate being hijacked. All the King's would have had to do is change their transponder to 7500 and that would have alerted ATC he was being hijacked. I am sure a Criminal hijacking a plane also would not allow then to follow their IFR flight plan and land at the filled destination.

AOPA With Article & Video Interview With John King and AOPA president Craig Fuller.

 

[powersbj]

I think a 7500 squawk is gonna get you shot at by the DHS faster than a sailor gets off in a Singapore whorehouse. Regardless the fault lies in the agency with the authority to act, they are the ones responsible for the validation of Intel which in this case was very available in another PUBLIC GOVERNMENT DATABASE..... Think on that one.

 

[Contract_Pilot]

I think a 7500 squawk is gonna get you shot at by the DHS faster than a sailor gets off in a Singapore whorehouse.

Why it's the standard procedure to let them know your being hijacked. "FAA Aim Chapter 6" if it was the case this type of stop would have been justified.

Code 7500 will never be assigned by ATC without prior notification from the pilot that the aircraft is being subjected to unlawful interference. The pilot should refuse the assignment of Code 7500 in any other situation and inform the controller accordingly. Code 7500 will trigger the special emergency indicator in all radar ATC facilities.

c. Air traffic controllers will acknowledge and confirm receipt of transponder Code 7500 by asking the pilot to verify it. If the aircraft is not being subjected to unlawful interference, the pilot should respond to the query by broadcasting in the clear that the aircraft is not being subjected to unlawful interference. Upon receipt of this information, the controller will request the pilot to verify the code selection depicted in the code selector windows in the transponder control panel and change the code to the appropriate setting. If the pilot replies in the affirmative or does not reply, the controller will not ask further questions but will flight follow, respond to pilot requests and notify appropriate authorities.

d. If it is possible to do so without jeopardizing the safety of the flight, the pilot of a hijacked passenger aircraft, after departing from the cleared routing over which the aircraft was operating, will attempt to do one or more of the following things, insofar as circumstances may permit:

1. Maintain a true airspeed of no more than 400 knots, and preferably an altitude of between 10,000 and 25,000 feet.

2. Fly a course toward the destination which the hijacker has announced.

e. If these procedures result in either radio contact or air intercept, the pilot will attempt to comply with any instructions received which may direct the aircraft to an appropriate landing field.

 

[Contract_Pilot]

King Schools' Martha King just dropped ANN a note to apprise us of the latest info concerning her (and John's) errant detention, at gunpoint, last Saturday, by the Santa Barbara Police Department.

Jim,

You will be pleased to know that the Santa Barbara Police Chief just called John, and apologized clearly and profusely for the incident.

He said that the police don't have any training for aircraft stops, and used the only procedure they knew - a "hot stop" on a stolen vehicle.

John suggested that perhaps police departments should have national training, and an "SOP", so they can do aircraft intercepts - when necessary - properly. John will provide him with ideas on the kind of training police should receive in this regard.

The conversation was very cordial.

--Martha

ANN has a number of FOIA and related requests into a number of governmental agencies about this matter... and as soon as they are responded to (and IF), we will present that data. Regardless; ANN maintains that as long as errant and false data is so easily put forth to Law Enforcement agencies with the intent to seek some type of 'Takedown' that someone is likely to be injured or killed during an armed detention... and we now have reports that other takedown actions and/or false detentions have resulted in damage to aircraft by LEOs who are not qualified to manipulate, inspect, disassemble or otherwise interfere with airplanes in the manners alleged by persons who have had this happen...

More info to come.

So they admit that the police don't have any training for aircraft stops!!! This could have gone really bad in a hurry if it was stolen.

Say the police stopped a truly stolen aircraft assuming piston engine with the P leads on the mags cut or an aircraft that has no keys and just switches. Would they know how to secure it and shut it down if the suspect bailed and left the engine running? What about a turbine engine would they know how to turn it off if no one was around with knowledge to help? What if they fired shots and critically wounded the suspect as he was advancing the throttle and the plane went airborne and the suspect died it would place more people and property on the ground in danger than a car would.