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Obviously we put it at the feet of the politicians, however individual cops still bear some responsibility. None of the Nazi atrocities would of happened if soldiers refused to follow them (yes its a bit extreme but paints a picture)

As a former cop.....
I was conflicted by that for a long time.

But then....
I got it explained to me (and I'm not saying that it is the end-all answer). The conversation went something like....

The Constitution is the Law of the Land and the basis for all laws passed in the USA. Politicians aren't supposed to make unconstitutional laws. The politicians make the laws and there are checks and balances to their powers. And, the AG is supposed to also check the law too prior to it being signed by the executive.

BTW.....Mark, do you have a law degree or are you a lawyer?

Nope.

Right. And those politicians usually are. So then, who are you to say much about The Law? It's not likely that we'll be called upon to collect Jews and send them off in the train cars. And, it's not like we'll be asked to form a line and open fire on the people as they are out in the field enjoying a smoke or lunch.

Obviously, I'm not gonna follow those kinds of orders.

Yes, you know your history. Besides, we also have the SCOTUS. And questions of the Constitutionality of any law is their job to interpret. Meaning that......until the SCOTUS rules otherwise.....the law is lawful.

Ok, Ok, ok......I get where you're coming from. And besides, I could always leave/quit, if don't like doing their $@^*.

Aloha, Mark

PS....story time.....
Someone refuses their ID to be issued a summons on a minor offense. You're violating my Constitutional Rights!

A young rookie had just graduated from the academy and was on foot patrol in Waikiki. The rookie had an encounter with a tourist. The tourist perhaps wanted to either test the officer or just was out and out refusing to turn over their ID to be issued a summons. I can't recall. And as for the original violation, IIRC it was something minor.

Could have been...... J-walking.

So anyway.....not getting compliance.....the rookie ends up spraying the tourist with OC before finally making the arrest.

OMG.....the news got ahold of it and ran with it.

83 year old tourist pepper-sprayed by police.

I was shocked too.

But then.....a couple of weeks later, I happened to talk with the Training Division staff and my eyes were opened to the latest technique as taught by the academy. The use of OC was authorized/recommended if/when the suspect offered non-compliance to lawful orders. The training division said that it wasn't your job to get hurt. OC is considered to be "less than lethal" and very low on the force continuum.

So think awhile (and it's not always the case that every step has to be done before the next step)......

Officer- uniformed presence
Officer speaks w/the person and requests compliance to submit.
Light touch.
OC spray.
Physical force or baton, etc....etc.....

So then....
I can see the revulsion to the use of OC on someone that old. But.....how much of the encounter and the resulting police response was in the control of the suspect?
 
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As a former cop.....
I was conflicted by that for a long time.

But then....
I got it explained to me (and I'm not saying that it is the end-all answer). The conversation went something like....

The politicians make the laws. There are checks and balances to their powers. And, the AG is supposed to also check the law too. The Constitution is the Law of the Land and the basis for all laws passed in the USA. Politicians aren't supposed to make unconstitutional laws.

BTW.....Mark, do you have a law degree or are you a lawyer?

Nope.

Right, and those politicians usually are. So then, who are you to say much about The Law? It's not likely that we'll be called upon to collect Jews and send them off in the train cars. And, it's like we'll be asked to form a line and open fire on the people as they are out in the field enjoying a smoke or lunch.

Obviously, I'm not gonna follow those kinds of orders.

Yes, you know your history. Besides, we also have the SCOTUS. And questions of the Constitutionality of any law is their job to interpret. Meaning that......until the SCOTUS rules otherwise.....the law is lawful.

Ok, Ok, ok......I get where you're coming from. And besides, I could always leave/quit if don't like doing their $@^*.

Aloha, Mark

Funny the comments about Nazi's. People generally jump straight to putting humans in cattle cars and gassing them and baking them. They entirely ignore the events and attitudes that took place for a decade that led up to those actions being viewed as "acceptable" by those in power and the general populace.

Probably the strongest thing I ever read or pondered regarding the evil of the world was that, true, Hitler was the head guy in charge, but it was everyone beneath him, just "following orders" that made his visions a reality. Without a following Hitler was just a nut, and he himself didn't massacre millions, but his followers sure did.

On the topic of lawyers, I have never viewed a lawyer as having any special powers to interpret the constitution better than I because many seem to demonstrate basic reading comprehension deficiencies when not understanding the phrase, "shall not be infringed," which seems to me as the most blatantly clear method of describing something that laws cannot be made to hinder in any way whatsoever.

The boiled frog says:
Ribbet, Ribbet.
 
Many years later (after I've been retired for a while). I see this.......
Its_all_legal.jpg

Hummmm?

Aloha, Mark
 
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As a former cop.....
I was conflicted by that for a long time.

But then....
I got it explained to me (and I'm not saying that it is the end-all answer). The conversation went something like....

The Constitution is the Law of the Land and the basis for all laws passed in the USA. Politicians aren't supposed to make unconstitutional laws. The politicians make the laws and there are checks and balances to their powers. And, the AG is supposed to also check the law too prior to it being signed by the executive.

BTW.....Mark, do you have a law degree or are you a lawyer?

Nope.

Right. And those politicians usually are. So then, who are you to say much about The Law? It's not likely that we'll be called upon to collect Jews and send them off in the train cars. And, it's not like we'll be asked to form a line and open fire on the people as they are out in the field enjoying a smoke or lunch.

Obviously, I'm not gonna follow those kinds of orders.

Yes, you know your history. Besides, we also have the SCOTUS. And questions of the Constitutionality of any law is their job to interpret. Meaning that......until the SCOTUS rules otherwise.....the law is lawful.

Ok, Ok, ok......I get where you're coming from. And besides, I could always leave/quit, if don't like doing their $@^*.

Aloha, Mark

PS....story time.....
Someone refuses their ID to be issued a summons on a minor offense. You're violating my Constitutional Rights!

A young rookie had just graduated from the academy and was on foot patrol in Waikiki. The rookie had an encounter with a tourist. The tourist perhaps wanted to either test the officer or just was out and out refusing to turn over their ID to be issued a summons. I can't recall. And as for the original violation, IIRC it was something minor.

Could have been...... J-walking.

So anyway.....not getting compliance.....the rookie ends up spraying the tourist with OC before finally making the arrest.

OMG.....the news got ahold of it and ran with it.

83 year old tourist pepper-sprayed by police.

I was shocked too.

But then.....a couple of weeks later, I happened to talk with the Training Division staff and my eyes were opened to the latest technique as taught by the academy. The use of OC was authorized/recommended if/when the suspect offered non-compliance to lawful orders. The training division said that it wasn't your job to get hurt. OC is considered to be "less than lethal" and very low on the force continuum.

So think awhile (and it's not always the case that every step has to be done before the next step)......

Officer- uniformed presence
Officer speaks w/the person and requests compliance to submit.
Light touch.
OC spray.
Physical force or baton, etc....etc.....

So then....
I can see the revulsion to the use of OC on someone that old. But.....how much of the encounter and the resulting police response was in the control of the suspect?
I see this as "are you a decent human being or not" How much more important is "your catch" and "your authority" over someones health? What POS peppersprays an 80 something for not showing ID? Any kind of "petty crime" does not justify this. Tell him to watch it and let him go. Even a 20y/o shouldnt be going through this, its simply not neccesary and just escalates a situation that otherwise isn't even a situation. Id have a serious WTF moment if I was OCd for not showing my ID and take it as an assault. Just because you're wearing a fancy uniform doesn't give you the right to attack people.

As my grandma would tell the story, the nazis came to take a neighbors farmers boy away into the Hitlerjugend, the farmer threathened them and they said "remember, you are not hitting us, you are hitting the uniform". Thats how I see it with police too. Put a nutcase in a uniform and the uniform pritects them from THEIR actions.
 
I see this as "are you a decent human being or not" How much more important is "your catch" and "your authority" over someones health? What POS peppersprays an 80 something for not showing ID? Any kind of "petty crime" does not justify this. Tell him to watch it and let him go. Even a 20y/o shouldnt be going through this, its simply not neccesary and just escalates a situation that otherwise isn't even a situation. Id have a serious WTF moment if I was OCd for not showing my ID and take it as an assault. Just because you're wearing a fancy uniform doesn't give you the right to attack people.

As my grandma would tell the story, the nazis came to take a neighbors farmers boy away into the Hitlerjugend, the farmer threathened them and they said "remember, you are not hitting us, you are hitting the uniform". Thats how I see it with police too. Put a nutcase in a uniform and the uniform pritects them from THEIR actions.


I stopped in my tracks right there......

What POS peppersprays an 80 something for not showing ID?

After all my typing and THAT is how it all boils down to.....in your mind?

Whatever......dude. No wonder we got problems in America.

Aloha, Mark
 
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if it's that serious why are we not limiting grocery stores or home improvement stores, or construction?

Construction in WA state was closed last summer for a while per the governor's orders. Grocery stores and home improvement stores have been limited on capacity off and on since this started.
 
I stopped in my tracks right there......

What POS peppersprays an 80 something for not showing ID?

After all my typing and THAT is how it all boils down to.....in your mind?

Whatever......dude. No wonder we got problems in America.

Aloha, Mark

My take away was "what kind of POS trains their cops to spray 80 year olds for simply refusing to ID themselves" - the answer is "politicians" be they politicians in or out of a uniform. They demand compliance, or else. They demand you kneel before Caesar, or else. Do as you are told, because my blue suit and pot metal badge mean I'm better than you, I'm more important, and I'll kill you and likely get away with it if you don't do as you are told. At some point the disconnect between morality and law proves a breeding ground for the morally corrupt, the thoughtless barbarians, and the individually weak. If allowed to fester they become no different than a criminal street gang in practice. As a beat officer it's your responsibility to weigh the law against what's good for the public. That jay walking old man who refuses to ID himself to you is no threat, and de-escalation or even removing yourself from the situation far better serves the good of the public and "justice" than pepper spraying and assaulting him. He can say "I'm just following my training" - its just like saying "I'm just following orders" - it removes his liability in his own mind. Unfortunately all too often government protects government, unless the cop is taking "enforcement action" against a minority these days.

Do the "suspects" in the encounters play a big role in how things play out? Yes. But so do the police. Given that at least one party in an encounter with the police is capable of killing the other, they need to use their brain for something other than a place holder when it comes to dealing with situations.

In the situation with the OP, the cop went in straight away being an aggressive jackass - and that only leads down a bad road. Then he lied to his supervisor and to dispatch about the situation - thankfully it was captured not only on his body camera, but on the camera worn by the subject. The cop even showed his own lack of understanding or his own lack of respect for the order he was allegedly enforcing, as he proclaims "I don't care about the governor's order, its a city ordnance" - this cop has a bad attitude and is likely to get someone hurt or killed if he hasn't already. He's certainly the same kind of cop who will happily show up to Red Flag you, or to take those evil semi-autos when asked or ordered to.

This guy probably goes home and watches news reels of the Koresh stand off and fantasizes about being Horiuchi's spotter.
 
As someone who is responsible for subordinate LEOs, me and this officer would be having a serious talk about their future.
Flies, honey, something something. It's a tough position but I would think better results could be had with a simple reminder and getting on with the day.

But then I'm not big on telling other people how to live.
 
I'm trying....
But I stopped again at.....

"......POS trains their cops to spray 80 year olds for simply refusing to ID themselves."

Yup....IMHO.....the problem(s) with America are bigger that I thought.:s0092:

Aloha, Mark
 
I'm trying....
But I stopped again at.....

"......POS trains their cops to spray 80 year olds for simply refusing to ID themselves."

Yup....IMHO.....the problem(s) with America are bigger that I thought.:s0092:

Aloha, Mark

Yes they are. We have a ruling class, then the enforcers who do the bidding of the ruling class. You said yourself you were taken aback until you learned that's how new trainees were being taught "because you don't get paid to get hurt" - so the solution is to get violent with the public using your bat belt full of crap instead of using words or going hands on when its actually appropriate to go hands on, and more importantly using one's own judgement and discretion instead of defaulting to some ingrained bubblegum "because muh training" - yes, there are big problems with America, which is why I'm less and less on the side of the police as a whole these days and more "I don't care" when there are calls to defund them. Maybe it will wake up people on both sides that there are serious problems that need addressed.
 
It may be wise to remember that :
Just 'cause one police officer does one thing , that does not make it so that all police officers would do the same.

To judge all police officers by the actions of some officers...
Is the same as judging all gun owners by the actions of some who misuse firearms.

Wording is very important when posting...
And broad , "blanket" statements , about a group , often do not speak for all within that given group.
Andy
 
FWIW.....
Police are often put into difficult situations.

A lot of stuff is driven by the police officer's initial contact. And at the same time, a lot of stuff is also brought on by the public's reaction.

YES and YES. So then.....

It's up to you.

Perhaps......a little reminder is needed. And perhaps, some simple facts of life, as a Police Officer. (I was NOT the author)

A Police Officer's Dilemma​

___________, you were not an Office of the Court, and you did not take an oath to uphold the law. Regardless of your personal belief in what is, or is not a law, the Law, as defined by the Constitution, says a law once passed is a law until a court over turns it. A law, any law, is Constitutional until a ruling to the contrary is render by a court with sufficient jurisdiction to rule on the Point of Law. Representatives of the People enact laws, so therefore the laws are laws of, by, and for the People. Do the People pass unjust laws? Yes, and that is why we have a Supreme Court at both the State and Federal level, to rule on the Constitutionality of the laws passed by the People. An officer takes an oath to serve and protect the People and in so doing that officer sets aside his own personal beliefs and adopts the beliefs of the People. Any office that is unwilling to do so, does not have the integrity to be an Officer of the Court and of the People he is sworn to protect.

To this day, and to my dying day, I will stand in awe of all those officers who resist the, sometimes almost overwhelming, urge to ignore their oath and take justice into their own hands. But their job is not to judge, not to render a verdict, not to sentence; their job is to enforce the written word of the law and to apprehend those who are thought to have broken the written word. The Court is the arm of our Justice system that renders a verdict as to whether someone is guilty of actually breaking the law, and to also render a verdict (ruling) on the Constitutionality of the law in first place.

The Constitution is more than just the Bill of Rights, it tells us which branch of the Government sets Policy, which Branch writes the laws, and which Branch determines the validity of those laws. The police officer is not a member of any of those Branches.

In the end......
Citizen complaints about alleged police misconduct are regularly investigated. There are ways and methods to do just that.

Yes. I was taken aback at the headline in the news.....at first. Then later, I also realized/remembered that there are only so many "approved techniques" available when doing the job.

That being said.....
How YOU wish to handle things if/when YOU decide to put on the badge and uniform is "Up To You."

Aloha, Mark
 
...
A law, any law, is Constitutional until a ruling to the contrary is render by a court with sufficient jurisdiction to rule on the Point of Law.
...
I remember reading, from what I thought a reliable source, that it is our right, if not our duty, not to obey an unconstitutional law. I'm not about to go look it up, and I'm not anxious to test it in any practical sense, but I don't see this as an excuse for bad behavior on the part of LEO/LEA. I get that you didn't write the article and that you may not mean it as an such an excuse.
 
How do you know what is what?

".....shall not be infringed."

I might think so. Though others may not think so.

Too bad the SCOTUS has never and continues to refuse to......answer the question. LOL.

Aloha, Mark

PS.....I wished that I could have refused to do a job.....just because I felt that I was uncomfortable. Oh wait....the docket is full. So, this case and this case. Yeah......we don't have to respond to it.

Then....
Getting back to those who have violated their Oath of Office (for passing Un-Constitutional Laws)....what should their punishment be?
 
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How do you know what is what?

".....shall not be infringed."

I might think so. Though others may not think so.

Too bad the SCOTUS has never and continues to refuse to......answer the question. LOL.

Aloha, Mark

PS.....I wished that I could have refused to do a job.....just because I felt that I was uncomfortable. Oh wait....the docket is full. So, this case and this case. Yeah......we don't have to respond to it.

Then....
Getting back to those who have violated their Oath of Office (for passing Un-Constitutional Laws)....what should their punishment be?
LOL, the officer didn't have to be a dick about it. He could have started with "hey I got a call I have to come out you're supposed to wear a mask I get it" and gone from there. He is at least half responsible for the escalation. He started the Monkey Dance and he should know better.
 
Police Officers (when I was around) were usually taught.....

Illegal orders.....do not follow.
If you see an order as un-just......if you choose to not follow/obey.....write out your refusal and be ready to justify yourself.

Aloha, Mark
 
If you have to be a lawyer to understand and correctly navigate, follow, or enforce a law, then the problem may not be the lawbreaker but the lawmaker.
 
If you have to be a lawyer to understand and correctly navigate, follow, or enforce a law, then the problem may not be the lawbreaker but the lawmaker.


IMHO.....
Laws should be written so that a person with a 6th grade education can understand it.

Ha, Ha, Ha.......

".....shall not be infringed."

Rrrright......seems that some politicians haven't gotten there yet.

Aloha, Mark
 
IMHO.....
Laws should be written so that a person with a 6th grade education can understand it.

Ha, Ha, Ha.......

".....shall not be infringed."

Rrrright......seems that some politicians haven't gotten there yet.

Aloha, Mark

According to psychological classification:
Idiots. —Those so defective that the mental development never exceeds that or a normal child of about two years.
Imbeciles. —Those whose development is higher than that of an idiot, but whose intelligence does not exceed that of a normal child of about seven years.
Morons. —Those whose mental development is above that of an imbecile, but does not exceed that of a normal child of about twelve years.

That would put politicians somewhere between idiot and imbecile. Makes perfect sense to me. A politician would have to be an idiot not to be able to write a law that even an imbecile could understand.
:)
 

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