Conspiracy explanation - govt ammo

[armedandsafe]

This came in today. A very clear explanation of some of the accusations flying about. (Emphasis added)

"The Patriot Post (The Patriot Post ? Voice of Essential Liberty )"

The last few months have seen troubling news of massive government purchases of ammunition. Agencies from the Social Security Administration to the Department of Agriculture to the Department of Homeland Security have purchased millions of rounds. But is the whole thing more hype than substance?

Ever since Barack Obama was first elected in 2008, he has been selling guns and ammunition at a faster clip than any gun salesman could hope for. And since his re-election, citizens have been faced with severe shortages of both. This can only be exacerbated by large government purchases. The Social Security Administration (SSA), for example, purchased 174,000 rounds and the Department of Agriculture (USDA) bought 320,000 rounds. More understandable in purpose but also perhaps more staggering in scale, the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) put in a request for 450 million rounds, while the FBI intends to purchase 100 million.

The headlines are ominous, but some of the hype can be put in perspective by doing a little math. National Review's Charles C. W. Cooke does just that. The SSA's request for 174,000 rounds amounts to just 590 rounds for each of its 295 inspector general agents "who investigate Social Security fraud and other crimes." Some of us might go through 590 rounds in an afternoon at the range. As for the USDA, 320,000 is enough to provide the same number of rounds for 542 agents, and, through the Forest Service, those agents have an area the size of Pakistan to cover.

When it comes to the bigger orders, Cooke writes, "The FBI and DHS's apparently vast orders are deceptively presented by the conspiracy theorists. It is true that in 2011, the FBI ordered up to 100 million bullets for its 13,913 special agents (which works out to 7,187 per agent). And, yes, the Department of Homeland Security -- a composite department that oversees USCIS, Customs and Border Protection, FEMA, ICE, the TSA, the Coast Guard, the Secret Service, and the National Protection Directorate -- placed a request for up to 450 million rounds for its 65,000 armed personnel (which works out to 6,923 per agent). But in the real world, ammunition is not divided up and handed out on such a basis. What is bought is stockpiled and then allocated on the basis of need. The DHS's order is expected to last for at least five years, and it was placed up front primarily as a cost-saving measure." Indeed, DHS is not even bound to buy that much; they merely have a tab on which to order more rounds as needed.

That certainly doesn't mean there aren't questions or that we should simply shrug and look the other way. For starters, the Department of Education recently placed an order for "27 Remington Brand Model 870 police 12-gauge shotguns." This might lead any reasonable person to ask, as Cooke does, "Whether it is in possession of one bullet or 1 million bullets, should the federal Department of Education be armed in the first place? If so, why?" We would add, should there even be a Department of Education? But that's a topic for another day. The DoE has been known to botch raids when it was the wrong enforcement vehicle from the start.

The same questions could be asked of any number of bureaucracies. Does the Social Security Administration really need an armed enforcement division? We've known some unruly seniors in our day, but that seems to be overkill.

Then there's the information that's just plain false. Reports have been circulating that DHS has procured 2,717 Mine Resistant Armor Protected (MRAP) vehicles. The truth is, DHS has had retrofitted MRAPs since 2008, and now has 16 of them for serving "high-risk warrants." The figure of 2,717 comes from a delivery to the Marine Corps, not DHS. None of that, however, takes away from the problem that these are more properly military vehicles for war zones, not law enforcement tools. The militarization of law enforcement is undeniably troublesome. Furthermore, DHS is the same bureaucracy that claims right-wing extremists pose a threat, and it's run by an administration that thinks that "weapons of war" shouldn't be on our streets. Unless they're the ones driving them, apparently.

There are certainly troubling trends here and very real threats to our Liberty, but we must be careful not to exaggerate. While readers know that we never minimize the outrageous growth of government beyond its constitutional bounds, it also doesn't seem to us that the government is, as some have put it, "stockpiling bullets in case of civil unrest." Questions about procurements and functions? Absolutely. Apocalypse? Not yet.

Pops

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[Mark W.]

Yea those of us not looking out from under a tin foil hat knew most of that already. Only thing new I read was the confusion of a US MARINE vehicle purchase with surplus vehicles being re-purposed for confronting nasty people.

Might ad that the people making military ammo aren't the same people making civilian ammo. And something like the shortage of rim fire ammo falls right at gun owners and profiteers feet.

 

[BAMCIS]

Yea those of us not looking out from under a tin foil hat knew most of that already.

Yeah that!

Only thing new I read was the confusion of a US MARINE vehicle purchase with surplus vehicles being re-purposed for confronting nasty people.

What I can't figure out is why would the USMC need any more of these? As I said in a different thread, I saw about a bazillion of these in Afghanistan. Many with little or no miles on them.

Might ad that the people making military ammo aren't the same people making civilian ammo. And something like the shortage of rim fire ammo falls right at gun owners and profiteers feet.

I'm waiting for all the idiots who NEED rimfire ammo NOW to have their fill and the prices to get more sane.

 

[Mark W.]

What I can't figure out is why would the USMC need any more of these? As I said in a different thread, I saw about a balillion of these in Afghanistan. Many with little or no miles on them.
QUOTE]

I'll bet it because they will leave the ones in the sand box in the sand box when we leave.

 

[dmancornell]

I'm waiting for all the idiots who NEED rimfire ammo NOW to have their fill and the prices to get more sane.

Check it: <broken link removed>

 

[spookshack]

Better hurry....there are only 8 left in stock!

 

[Member 3687]

Yes the 22lr issue is on us gun type folks and no one else.

From what I can tell 2 things started the 22lr to vanish. The first was people felt it was cheaper to practice with 22lr than with as 5.56 and 7.62x39 and was easier to get. (At the time)

The second was the resent push to ban lead in ammo by the Brady campaign and other anti gun groups through the EPA rather than through the house.

This is not a new proposal I just think folks paid attention to it this time.

Mark W.
Might ad that the people making military ammo aren't the same people making civilian ammo.

Not quite true many manufactures produce ammo for civilian, military and law enforcement and several like ATK and Federal do or will produce all in the same facility and on the same equipment to meet demand.

This is where the problem comes in once they start production on a military contract they do not stop until they meet a certain quota as it requires certain test and inspections to be done during the production. So until they meet a certain minimum requirement they do not change to civilian production. Also most of the contracts do have a clause if needed the feds have a priority over other markets.

Even if you agree or disagree with what is going on it was started out of fear of the government overstepping or bypassing the constitution and at the time I feel it was and still is a real threat.

Just look at states like New York and Colorado if you do not feel the threat is real and the feds wanted to do the same type of things.

On a good note I feel all the sales and shortages have shown the Government where many Americans stand on the issue so even though it sucks not to be able to find ammo it did send a message.

 

[3MTA3]

Pretty good Forbes article: 1.6 Billion Rounds Of Ammo For Homeland Security? It's Time For A National Conversation - Forbes

 

[Profiteering]

Can I start selling my 22lr for $1 a round?
Is that gouging?

 

[Tracer1951]

Can I start selling my 22lr for $1 a round?
Is that gouging?

No, that is called free enterprise... capitalism...the law of supply and demand..... the law of cause and affect ... theres a sucker born every minute.... stupid is as stupid does !!! Oh wait... strike those last two!!

 

[nwwoodsman]

Can I start selling my 22lr for $1 a round?
Is that gouging?

That's almost funny. I saw a guy selling 22lr for 75 cents a round on a different site today

 

[TheHumungus]

I spoke to several of my favorite go-to ammo sources, and all are saying basically the same thing. The bank run on ammo caused by primarily by people hoarding ammo who were fearful that they could not get it anymore are solely to blame for the current shortage. We are still at least six to eight months away from seeing increased inventories of ammo for sale.

While I don't have as much ammo as I would like, I have as much as I need, and will wait for prices to return to sanity. I would urge all serious shooters out there (who are not wearing the tin foil hats) to resist paying high prices for ammo. More is on the way, just got to give it some time. AR'S are already starting to show back up at pre-panic prices.

The government can't even deliver the mail on time, so I am always surprised to hear people who believe the government can pull off complicated and intricate national evil conspiracies. People watch too many movies I guess...

 

[Glock Jock]

I love hearing people try to make themselves sound smart by saying people who oppose their opinions wear tinfoil hats.

They have never ordered guns, ammo and armored vehicles like this in history - and if you think there is a problem with that then you wear tinfoil hats and I am smarter than you.

 

[TheHumungus]

I think they deserve to be ridiculed a bit, because they are over reacting emotionally based on little information instead of thinking clearly and logically. In order to believe the DHS is "preparing for something" including using armored vehicles and pistol ammunition to attack Americans, one needs to believe that every DHS government employee supports what the agency is doing, and has no problem going after other Americans. This just strains credulity. I would wager that three quarters of the DHS folks will call in sick to work and simply not show up if there was a chance their political bosses were about to try to take over civilians. I would actually enjoy seeing the DHS, or any other governmental agency, try to pull off something like that or some other giant power grab. It would show the Democrats to be the true fascists that they are, and they would never win another election again in our lifetimes. To me, the acquisition of a bunch of excess pistol ammo, and the purchase of surplus Marine MRAP's is just another huge waste of tax dollars. It's not evil, just stupid. Besides, 2700 or so MRAP's is only enough vehicles to cover an area the size of Eugene. Gonna need a lot more if they have any plans more extensive than stopping the Ducks from winning a national championship..

C'mon, were the "Black Helicopter" crowd of the nineties correct? Were the people who thought FEMA was organizing a secret army correct?

People give the government way too much credit....

I love hearing people try to make themselves sound smart by saying people who oppose their opinions wear tinfoil hats.

They have never ordered guns, ammo and armored vehicles like this in history - and if you think there is a problem with that then you wear tinfoil hats and I am smarter than you.

 

[Black Dog]

People give the government way too much credit....

I really like that QUOTE !

 

[dmancornell]

In order to believe the DHS is "preparing for something" including using armored vehicles and pistol ammunition to attack Americans, one needs to believe that every DHS government employee supports what the agency is doing, and has no problem going after other Americans.

Implying the government won't use pervasive propaganda to sway the few fence-sitters in the DHS to attack the civilian population.

<broken link removed>

Anyone "working" for DHS has to be morally challenged to begin with.

 

[rimrockhunter]

You are a prolific writer and have written quite an essay. I feel it is lacking I real information. Your information presented is only the tip of the iceberg. I know this for a fact because I am a contractor with access to the FedBiz Ops website. If you have a DUNS number, just log onto the FedBiz website, and with the search query "ammunition", from here one can really see the the story. I am able to view back to the fall of 2011. This is when DHS purchased 1.5 billion rounds of ammo. Mostly 40 cal. I can see the winning bidder, dates of delivery, contact information, delivery location, contract documents, ect...
The two big orders in 2012 were 1) 33 million rounds and 2) 40 million rounds. That was just the amt on the original RQ. In the contract docs, the 33 m RQ is actually for 150 m rounds, and the 40 m RQ is for 200 m rounds. Make no mistake they will take delivery, and not years down the road. The docs express an "urgency". Federal arms got both the big orders. Also, the SSA order of 174, 000 rounds is all 7.62 mm (.308 win) 168 gr match ammo. WTF is that for. National Park Service ordered the same. US Forest Service has similar and also has ordered some high tech night vision and listening devices. Coyote problem I think. I think its safe to assume the gov is stockpiling like crazy. For what, I'll stay out of that discussion.

 

[Member 3687]

Look up Ruby Ridge on Youtube you will see they did use black helicopters and army choppers as well as APCs. Discovery Times did a couple shows on it.

Then if you look up Waco you will find they used the same equipment there as well.

So now who has the tin foil hat on!

I forgot these where bad folks, just like many of us will be if they pass these gun bans.

Then look up Elian Gonzalez and see how the feds work. Elian Gonzalez Seized From His Miami Home, April 22, 2000 - YouTube

Ruby Ridge just one of many
Discovery Times: Ruby Ridge 5/5 - YouTube

 

[rimrockhunter]

Rimfire shortage is not on our shoulders. See here and there are many more orders such as this.
Added:*Apr 12, 2012 11:30 am

This is a combined synopsis/solicitation for commercial items prepared in accordance with the format in FAR Subpart 12.6, as supplemented with additional information included in this notice.The solicitation number is HSFLGL-12-Q-00029 and is issued as an invitation for bids (IFB), unless otherwise indicated herein.The solicitation document and incorporated provisions and clauses are those in effect through Federal Acquisition Circular FAC 2005-57. The associated North American Industrial Classification System (NAICS) code for this procurement is 332992 with a small business size standard of 1,000.00 employees.This requirement is a [ Small Business ] set-aside and only qualified offerors may submit bids.The solicitation pricing on Meet Your Marketplace. will start on the date this solicitation is posted and will end on 2012-04-17 13:00:00.0 Eastern Time or as otherwise displayed at www.FedBid.com.FOB Destination shall be Artesia, NM 88210

The DHS Federal Law Enforcement Training Center requires the following items, Purchase Description Determined by Line Item, to the following:*
LI 001, .22 long rifle, 36 grains hollow point (HP), 5, TH; 2.5 million rounds.

They are talking in cases here.* 500 to 1000 rounds per case. See the yellow highlighted quantities if in 500 round cases.
Manufactures cant keep up with the demand from both sides, and their contracts with the gov, put the govs desires ahead of ours. Big brothers order gets filled first.

 

[NEEKO15]

WHY DONT I HEAR YOU PEOPLE GETTING UPSET WITH PAYING THE HIGH PRICE FOR FUEL,GOING TO THE MOVIES,AIR FARE THE PRICE FOR A GALLON OF MILK YOU STILL PAY IT IS THAT GOUGING
SURE .WHO CARES IF SOME ONE IS WILLING TO PAY THE HIGH PRICE FOR AMMO,RELOADING SUPPLIES,GUNS,THAT DOSE NOT AFFECT YOUR LIFE AT ALL YOU KNOW WHAT YOUR WILLING TO PAY FOR SOMETHING SO WHY SHOULD IT BE YOUR CONCERN WHAT SOMEONE ELSE PAYS.IT IS CALL SUPPLY AND DEMAND GET OVER IT ALL READY.