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Considering a Scary Black Rifle -- Questions

Discussion in 'Rifle Discussion' started by Osarion, Jun 16, 2016.

  1. Osarion

    Osarion Snohomish County, WA Well-Known Member

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    I've had the itch for a while to step into the world of rifles (and shotguns eventually do to some 3 gun competitons). I have a few questions though.

    What is the appeal of the .22lr AR? I've seen bigger things come out of people's noses than that .22lr ammo.

    Is it better to but your first one pre made, or build it yourself? I have no idea what building it entails, but would definitely be down if it were a much cheaper route to go.

    If buying an already-built version, is it better to start low end or just dive in for mid-high end?
     
  2. ozmosis

    ozmosis vancouver Active Member

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    Colt, LMT would be my first choice for out of the box ready.
    If you can change a spark plug you can build a black rifle it's pretty straight forward.
    With the difficulty finding .22lr ammo I would put the $400 to ammo for the above.
     
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  3. IheartSig

    IheartSig Beaverton Diamond Supporter Diamond Supporter Platinum Supporter

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    If I was in your position, knowing what I know through experience and hard lessons....

    If you want to shoot 22, I would buy a Ruger 10/22 and call it good.

    To me a 22LR AR is silly. a 22 has no reason, ever...ever ever ever to be "tactical" or represent another type of firearm.

    An exception I could understand and have made for example, would be my GSG MP5 SD clone. I could never afford a real HK MP5 SD and I have wanted one very much since I fired one from the SEALS cache we were deployed with. So, I have the 22 clone version. I can see that logic.

    I would seriously suggest grabbing a base model S&W/PSA/DPMS etc., full model, not a slick side or "sport" model. This way you can become familiar with the rifle and what its features, strength and weaknesses are and decide what YOU need in a rifle and slowly start accumulating the parts to make it or buy one outright if you prefer.

    The learning curve for the average adult between 22 and 5.56/223 seems to be very very small. You may as well grab an actual 5.56 and learn with it if you intend on competing.

    The fundamentals of shooting can be attained through the 10/22 and are instantly transferable if cost of ammo is a prohibitive factor or consideration.


    any way, just my 2 cents! Good luck!
     
  4. Osarion

    Osarion Snohomish County, WA Well-Known Member

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    Thanks!
    Are parts interchangeable on a "stock" gun like the pre built models you listed? Can I customize one of those to whatever degree if I buy one?
     
  5. ozmosis

    ozmosis vancouver Active Member

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    You can swap uppers all you want, trade out furniture too. It's the grown up "Lego" rifle.
     
  6. IheartSig

    IheartSig Beaverton Diamond Supporter Diamond Supporter Platinum Supporter

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    Ozmosis is correct. If you have a stock rifle, the available upgrades and options are almost endless. From the compensator to the stock, literally there are aftermarket parts available for every piece. Some add function, some reduce weight, some increase performance, some just look beautiful. Legos for adults.
     
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  7. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    I'd suggest you start by acquiring one that's built by professionals with high quality parts, that will run perfectly and last a lifetime. Get one chambered in 5.56 with a fast enough twist rate to handle heavier bullets.

    Once you have a specimen that is correct, you could move into building one, using the first as a standard to aspire to.

    The value of a .22 version lies in having a dedicated upper with the identical optics used on your 5.56 upper. You can get useful trigger time by literally working with your normal lower but at 1/4 of the ammo cost.

    2,000 practice rounds of using .22 will pay for $800 (in ammo savings) for a dedicated upper and optics. After that, it's gravy.
     
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  8. Boboclown

    Boboclown North Carolina Well-Known Member

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    For a first AR its better to buy one already made. Though you can build if you want to, the AR really doesn't require a lot to build if you have the tools. There are videos on how to do so online.

    One point of .22 LR in an AR is to get used to using an AR without spending a lot on ammo. Another is for a new shooter or kid to shoot it.

    In regards to low end and high end, it depends. Some "low end" ARs can be good, normally you're missing something like QC and such. High end if you can afford it, low end if you can't. It doesn't really matter since you can just replace parts as you go along.
     
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  9. AndyinEverson

    AndyinEverson Everson, Wa. Well-Known Member

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    I'd do some research , ask folks questions on here and go with quality built one in .556.
    As has been stated if you get a quality one it is worth adding on the accessories you feel you need.
    Speaking of accessories and speaking only for myself , I do not a lot of "extras " on my rifle.
    If I owned one I will try to find the "glow in the dark" front sight , like we had on some rifles in the Army.
    Its been a few days since I was in the army and I forget what those are called LOL.
    Other than magazines , cleaning kit and sling that would be about it for me and accessories.
    Not knocking those who like and use many accessories for their rifles , just not my style.

    As a learning rifle AR's are fun and easy to shoot. They have a good feel and most folks can learn to shoot them well in a few sessions.
    Lots of parts are out there as well if something wears out.
    With the different caliber uppers , you can have lots of choices of ammo to suit your needs.
    All in all a very versatile rifle. Plus some people think you shouldn't own one , that could be reason enough right there.
    Andy
     
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  10. Lance Jacobs

    Lance Jacobs South Willamette Valley Oregon Well-Known Member

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    If you have such little knowledge about the AR-15 and have zero experience at all with rifles period, then I would definitely recommend that you avoid trying to build one yourself. Just get a good basic stock carbine from a good company. Guns like the Colt LE6920, Rock River Arms LAR-15 Entry Tactical, or one of the Smith & Wesson M&P Carbines would all be good choices. As time goes by, and you become more familiar with AR rifles, you can always end up modifying and customizing the gun.

    However, the best first rifle for any person to get usually is a .22 LR. If that is what you decide to get, I would second the earlier recommendations to get a Ruger 10-22 instead. But if your goal is to compete in 3 gun competitions, then you need to get a rifle in 5.56mm

    Do you currently shoot pistol matches with a handgun? If your goal is to shoot 3 gun, then the very first thing to do is to find a range near you that has 3 gun matches.

    .
     
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  11. etrain16

    etrain16 Oregon Bronze Supporter Bronze Supporter

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    Regarding the .22lr AR, I do see some value to them. I've owned the S&W M&P 15-22 for about 4 years now and it's a favored gun in my house. Assuming you or someone you know would like to start out with a kind of pre-AR rifle, a model in .22lr can have some benefits. First, it's lighter than a standard AR, and recoil is non-existent (not that a regular AR has heavy recoil), both of which are good for new shooters, recoil sensitive shooters and those with physical issues that may not be able to handle a full AR (I've known a few folks with physical issues that limited them to not much more than a .22lr). Second, it has the look, feel and operates very much like a regular AR, so it's a great way to introduce someone to AR rifles while saving some money on ammo. Third, and I can only speak to the S&W model, it's darn reliable. It's been more reliable than my 10/22 and my Marlin 60. Fourth, it's a blast to shoot - it's just a lot of fun.

    But to the question at hand, I would agree with the recommendations above and don't try to build your first AR, buy a production model. Get used to the rifle, see how it operates, get to know how the parts fit together. Building one isn't difficult, particularly if you use a pre-built upper, so you could do that later. In fact, you could take the opportunity before congress does something stupid, and buy a couple of AR stripped lowers now, just in case there is a run on guns/parts down the road. You can always build them out later.

    Unless you have a need/desire for a model in .22lr (I do with a young daughter that will be stepping into shooting soon), stick with a production model in .223/5.56 and see how you like it. There are some great entry and mid-level guns that won't break the bank, but will allow you to step in and see if it's right for you. And you can always sell it if you decide the AR isn't right for you - in fact, I'll give you $100 for it ;) :p
     
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  12. Brutus57

    Brutus57 Skagit County Well-Known Member

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    Don't hesitate, buy one and now. The above mentioned brands excellent. I wish I would have bought one in the early 1980s, didn't but finally a few years ago built one. have been around firearms all my life and I didn't have the cash up front so I bought it a part or two at a time.
    Again. just get one as mentioned above Colt, S&W M&P, Aero Precision, etc.
    Make sure multi cal. .223/5.56 and enjoy!
    Brutus Out
     
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  13. ThemGunsThough

    ThemGunsThough RIP City! Well-Known Member

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    Right now is the golden age of ARs so it's a great time to buy. I built my first ar last weekend and it took me about 2 hours for the lower and 3 hours for the upper. The hardest part for me was inputting the roll pin for the low profile gas block. You'd save a bit of money building it your self but there have been some good deals lately for a basic $500 ar15 new. I've bought one for my wife and then also built one cheaper with better parts like a stainless steel barrel, nickel boron bcg, and key mod hand guard for under $500. Probably spent $80 on tools though but at least they will be around and useful for cleaning and/or if I ever wanna upgrade. The only .22lr AR style rifle I'd recommend outside of a dedicated upper would be the SW M&P15-22. I shoot this thing the most out of all my guns and has been more accurate than my 10/22 or my buddies 10/22 that he has invested over a grand into. I've seen them online for only 300 and that's a bargain. Anyways, I'd recommend you just buy one now if you're on the fence deciding because the prices are at an all time low. Anyways, just my $.02 :)
     
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  14. Doc In UPlace

    Doc In UPlace Tacoma-ish Well-Known Member

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    *At least last week it was. The demand has probably spiked dramatically this week, and does every time the congresscritters get stirred up.
     
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  15. PaulB47

    PaulB47 Hillsboro Well-Known Member

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    .22LR AR-15's never made much sense to me either.

    If you reload or know someone who does, you can have them put together some light .223 loads for familiarization, or other things you would do with a .22 such as shooting squirrels. Of course they won't be able to cycle the action so you'd have to do that manually.

    Yeah, but the hard part is accumulating the parts and selecting them from the infinite variety that is out there now. I built my first AR when it was only Colt, Bushmaster and Oly Arms. Things were simpler then. :)

    I agree with everybody else. Buy right now, don't delay. Get a stripped lower at least, the basic ones are quite cheap.

    If building, be sure to check the headspace. It may vary some, right?

    I was going to build again, but then I just found a builder in Milwaukie who seems to get good reviews and sells pretty reasonable, so I bought one of his. Had to upgrade the trigger though, the basic mil-spec one that came with the gun had an incredible amount of creep.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
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  16. rdb241

    rdb241 Puyallup Washington Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    post-29851-Judy-Judy-rolls-eyes-gif-Imgur-t374_zpspqzc53x4.gif


    Well let's see, where to start? First of all, at no time was any .22lr meant to be "tactical" As far as representing another firearm. Answer this. Why would a eastern European country train there military with a AK-22's before they issued them real AK-47's? This is a Romanian AK-22lr training rifle.

    IMG_1765_zpsisgavqhn.jpg

    So why wouldn't any other military do them same thing with different rifles? Even the Germans make factory 22lr conversions for the HK 91 series rifles and all variants. It is cost effective to use them as training rifles. Our own US military had Colt make a 22lr. conversion for the M-16 rifle. There are many 22lr conversion for the AR-15 but the military had there own. Not only are they good training aids. They fill another nitch also. They are a good, quite small game hunting tool. A lot quitter than a .223 or a 7.63x39.

    This is my AR-22lr I made from a 80% lower. I purchased a complete upper with a poly receiver. So both the upper and lower are poly. It also has a poly dust cover. With Black Dog poly mags, the rifle is very lite.

    IMG_1764_zpsluhjd2lq.jpg

    Then you contradict yourself by saying that a .22lr can not be tactical but you have a man crush on a HK22lr. So if they are a silly training aid, why do the Navy Seals have them?
    Are you possibly Bipolar? Because you are not making any sense.

    FYI............one of the highest end AR's also has a .22lr version.
    HK 416 D145RS - Walther Arms (http://www.waltherarms.com/tactical-rimfire-replicas/hk/416-d145rs/)

    Silly huh?
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  17. Ura-Ki

    Ura-Ki Sub Light Speed Well-Known Member

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    I agree with most here, I would Get one of the Aero or Colt's then add a dedicated upper to keep shooting costs down, and the fun factor high! Yes, it will set you back more in the near term, but will save hundreds a year in ammo costs! I would stay out of the .22 only rifle, you loose usefulness! Before today, I would say building one was the cheaper way to go but not now, I found a really nice basic Aero for less then the parts and shipping, and it is mill spec and shoots as it should! My last build cost about $170 more! And like most things, i agree with AndyinEverson, I hate "cool guy gear" on my rifles, I prefer them as Eugen Stoner and Colt intended them way back in the day, Light weight, simple, and reliable! Andy, those front sight posts were Tritum inserts that screwed in, D.S.Arms sells them and a few other places, keep in mind, they are two moa sights! JMHO
     
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  18. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    Forget a .22 anything.
    You'd be wasting money on a firearm you'll hardly be able to shoot given the lack of ammo.

    Id get an entey level AR chambered in 5.56. Then, down the road you can get a cheap .22 drop in kit or a dedicated .22 upper and have the best of both worlds.

    Now is the time to buy, and to spend your money wisely. Yes, Im fear mongering.. But thats because of the current climate we're in.
     
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  19. rdb241

    rdb241 Puyallup Washington Gold Supporter Gold Supporter

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    You can go either way! An AR receiver is an AR receiver. You can buy a .22lr and later put a .223 upper on it.
     
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  20. ZA_Survivalist

    ZA_Survivalist Oregon AK's all day.

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    I agree, the lower is the ideal part. However Id probably get the entire 5.56 set up and get the complete .22 dedicated upper and mags second. Those will always be around and likely cheaper than what they used to be because .22 is so tough to come by these days. YMMV :D
     
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