"Collapse" Movie, you want to listen to this guy

[Silver Fox]

Grats on 500th post.

Anyways, I'm not trying to be a prick to anyone.. It's just simply that I've seen a lot of these prophet types, and they are all just con men selling you their latest hustle.

Even if they've convinced you otherwise.

56k-

Nobody is calling you any names.

I understand your frustration about the false prophets. With everything that is going on right now and in the last 12 months that was predicted 3 years ago... i would say the guy has a little more credibility than chicken little. What is really disturbing to me is that people who have scoffed at owning guns or preparing are asking me questions of "which gun?" or "what I should I do?" are 'feeling' something (which is a whole separate topic that I would talk about for hours around a fire with a few beers) and sense they should prepare for something. They don't know what it is and it started about 45 days before Indy Mac Bank closed its doors... thats the part that creeps me out.

Interesting times ahead. What makes it worse is unlike Cuba we have a 'diverse' culture with access to firearms and a sense of entitlement... thats what worries me. What are the Feds going to do? FEMA contractors? Military? Who knows but in the mean time I will get my affairs in order.

SF-

Anyways,

 

[dobanion]

Well Cuba also has fantastic climate and soil through the whole country for growing anything you want.

Most of the land that the average person has access to in the USA isn't going to grow a thing. And the people who DO have good land, aren't going to want to share it. That's where the firearms come in.

 

[willseeker]

Well Cuba also has fantastic climate and soil through the whole country for growing anything you want.

Most of the land that the average person has access to in the USA isn't going to grow a thing. And the people who DO have good land, aren't going to want to share it. That's where the firearms come in.

Ummm. I'm not sure what you mean by that last sentence.



I take what I don't have?
You protect what you do have?
...or do we shoot eggplants at 20 paces?

 

[dobanion]

The first two things you said. My point was that unlike Cuba, which had lots of good land and soil and very few firearms, we have little (public) good land and soil, and LOTS of firearms. Ergo, any collapse type scenario will include people shooting other people for access to food and food bearing land.

You have 300 million people, 250 million firearms, and enough resources to feed 30 million people. What happens next?

It's like Ruppert has stated, oil allowed the human population on this planet to go from 1 billion to 7 billion (and growing). Take away the oil, take away the people, one way or another.

 

[unionguy]

willseeker--good points all around, don't think I disagree with any of it. The only point I was trying to make was whether the landing would be "soft" (i.e. tough but not catastrophic) vs. "hard" (i.e. complete anarchy, streetfighting, Mad Max style). I don't believe anyone knows what we will ultimately see on this front.

At least in Oregon we have lots of good agricultural land!

 

[willseeker]

Well, why don't you two (dobanion and unionguy) talk, because I think I'm hearing A) lots of land and B) limited land.

IMO regardless of land availability, if we as a populace work together to feed eachother in community (small or large community) there is enough land in these U.S. to feed all.

Don't get me wrong, as a Soc. major I was taught to regard survival with cynical glasses. I was taught that we should for the most part fend for ourselves and our own. Get a good education and when the ship goes down, at least you will view it from the comfort of a davenport with a martini in hand.

Frankly, I don't believe in a catastrophic hard fall and landing because the elites will try and bolster some sense of order, if for no other reason than to keep collecting taxes.

IPSO FACTO PEPTO BISMOL: We can look forward to the continuing decline of our "oil" nation due to peak oil or whathaveyou, because we just have not woken up to the undeniable fact that we have raped the world of finite resources...and she is pissed!

 

[dobanion]

Yes, lots of land. All owned by someone else who will fight to the death to defend it. You think the guy with 500 acres of land is going to let anyone eat off it? Without law enforcement, he'll be shooting people dead with his 308 at 400 yards when they cross the property line. Collapse won't inspire a sense of brotherhood among men, it will make everyone enemies.

It comes down to your belief or lack thereof in human goodness and community. I don't, at least at the current world population. There's a balance with the people/resources. When you have waaaaaay too many people (like now), other people are obstacles. Career, money, food, housing, etc. We are all collectively clawing over each other to move upward. You move up, someone else moves down. Now when you have 10% of the current world population, resources are plentiful, and people working together accomplish more with them.

Story: Sat next to father and his ~8 year old son one day. Couldn't help but hear a little tidbit. Son was talking about some team sport and how he wasn't doing as well on the team as he wanted. Father says "Well you gotta get in there and beat them all, and show them that you are better, and take your rightful place at the top of the team." This wasn't about the other team, this was within his OWN team. I found it to be a telling metaphor of modern life.

Everyone is your competitor, and you need to beat them all, everyday, or you lose.

Call it what you want, I would regard a world population of 1 billion to be "the great correction." Ruppert speaks of the need to be in balance with the resources. We can have have 1 billion (or so) people on this planet for the next 10,000 years. 7 billion is just waiting for the ax to fall.

I have wanted a acre or two of my own my entire adult life. It's my dream. Just a modest house, even cabin, a garden, a few animals, etc. Guess what? I can't. You can't get a loan on anything like that (I have tried and tried). It will be 10-20 years before I have the CASH saved to buy it outright. Getting land of your own was given away 150 years ago. Now you have to work half your life in the city before you can afford a scrap.

Venting a little......

 

[Silver Fox]

The Willamette and the San Fernando Valleys produce enough food to feed America. There are two problems to this: 1. Transportation of produce and 2. Other parts of America that produce cash crops only and nothing else. The small farms of America that fed the U.S. in the Great Depression and in WW II (the Greatest Generation) are almost wiped out. Small farms with diverse crops are fewer and fewer today.

My recommendation: Make friends with a farmer who has natural springs on his property that can be defended and learn to be a farm hand at day and guard at night. That reminds me I need to buy some night vision goggles.

SF-

 

[willseeker]

Yes, yes! A little passion! Mr. Dobanion.
I too would like to have a small plot of land to build a cabin, garden and a few animals.

I know that someone else has started a thread about what I call "intentional communities". I believe that small groups/tribes will survive.
Pooling together resources, maybe a small group can put together enough for a small plot.

 

[dobanion]

Yes, I think that post-collapse that intentional communities will be the most successful. It will be hard to form one when everyone is scared and in self preservation mode. Most will be friends and family based I'm sure.

Currently, all the legal crap that goes into forming and preserving an intentional community from itself and especially from code enforcement agencies is very difficult. You can't drink the rainwater you collect, the toilets must Y sq feet of leach field of a DEQ approved supplier of pipe, you can't have goats, you can have chickens but they must be fed this diet and be 45ft from any living domicile and on and on and on. I pulled that last sentence out of my *** but you get the drift.

How can pissing in your bushes be illegal? Ask the government, they'll send you a 500 page booklet explaining it to you.

 

[willseeker]

I was asked by an already established ranch of 40 acres to build cabins and a large kitchen/bath facility for an intentional community last year.

Problem started with, yup you guessed it, the county building department getting involved. Again, don't get me wrong, I'm all for codes and regulations protecting human life, but it got to the point that all their fees and this and that hurdles, made it virtually impossible to succeed.
In the future it may be that infrastructure (government agencies) will be reduced to marginal efficacy and restrictions on how and what you can live like will change. Without revenue from taxes, the payrolls of city and state workers will go down and with them the personnel. They may not be able to monitor all land development. As long as you're not acting criminally they might ignore you?

Unfortunately or whatever, I am coming to the realization that survival may necessitate the circumvention of normal beaureacratic protocol (see definition: outlaw)

It may come down to finding a piece of arrable land, working in cooperation with landowner (thanks SF for that input) and trading skills. I'm not holding hands here, just kicking around cooperative living.

 

[dobanion]

Unfortunately or whatever, I am coming to the realization that survival may necessitate the circumvention of normal beaureacratic protocol (see definition: outlaw)

My perception exactly.

I should mention the one successful (and very pleasant) intentional community I know of is in the NE corner of Missouri where there are no building, plumbing, septic, etc. laws.

They were to the limit. All power made on site. All water used was rain catchment. All outflows went to a constructed wetland. Composted all human waste, and it was fertilizer two years later. Everything member built, strawbale and cob (earthen) construction was all over. Grew most of their food, traded with another nearby community for some more. Most people there were healthy, happy, and unemployed. Some of the happiest families I'd ever seen.

All because they were left alone.

My only problem, I really like Oregon, I don't care for Missouri.

 

[willseeker]

I found some good acreage just East of here, about 100 miles, great for solar, wind and has a year round running stream!
Now all I need is $$.

 

[willseeker]

Well, off to OFA for my Utah permit and a cigar on the way. :cigar:

 

[Silver Fox]

Well, off to OFA for my Utah permit and a cigar on the way. :cigar:

Good times.

SF-

 

[willseeker]

Good times.

SF-

Just got back! Black ice everywhere south of Salem.
Dan and the guys sure put on a good show!

 

[willseeker]

Yes, I think that post-collapse that intentional communities will be the most successful. It will be hard to form one when everyone is scared and in self preservation mode. Most will be friends and family based I'm sure.


How can pissing in your bushes be illegal? Ask the government, they'll send you a 500 page booklet explaining it to you.

Well let's get started now?

Most people still don't get it that we are in the collapse already and aren't yet in the scared self preservation mode. What I generally run into is, "yeah, I've been thinking about it" but then this thing called life happens and it's time to go back to work, make dinner, fix the flat on the truck, walk the yak, feed the kangaroos... and do it over again tomorrow! No time for "out there" lifestyle changes.
I don't think people are scared necessarily, more like comfortably apathetic.

You know, there's nothing wrong with doing this thing with family and friends as long as they are sincerely committed to building a better life (better food, water, exercise). Some of my family though I wouldn't trust with my compost.

What I'm thinking of is starting a questionaire for a proposed community that would ask things like, what are your skill sets, what occupations have you done, what do you think of organic foods, what kind of sense of humor do you have, do you believe in a higher power... and maybe find kindred folk to work together with. Hmmm...

Yes, and I pissed in some bushes tonight as a matter of fact, quite refreshing!

 

[aslinged]

Two things to help: one, you can build anything you want up to 200 sqft, call them cabins, or guest quarters and build a large communal kitchen/lodge hall where the 'owners live.' Two, if you form an LLC and each party owns shares then, again, the rules can be bent to your favor while still retaining legality.

If you think about the way taxes and such really end up working in favor of those who can afford attorneys (which does not instantly imply legal, and often the opposite) then you start to visualize the reality of there being loopholes if you can only find them and afford/beg/borrow the legal assistance.

Edit to add: For instance, lose the term 'intentional community' right off the bat. It connotes hippies, broken laws and the like. Try: retreat or institute to describe your operation.

 

[willseeker]

Edit to add: For instance, lose the term 'intentional community' right off the bat. It connotes hippies, broken laws and the like. Try: retreat or institute to describe your operation.

Thanks for the feedback aslinged, however; the maximum size you can build in the city of PDX without a permit is 10' x 12'. In areas that I've checked into in WA state, the max. size is the same, 10 x 12.

...and maybe I like the connotation. Maybe some laws are meant to be questioned or even broken? And just, maybe I don't want to live in an institution!

 

[aslinged]

It's not about what you like or what you want to do. The point is that it keeps the law off your back. Comprende?