Closing the "Obama and Guns" thread is

[Jamie6.5]

Reading the info on Gunlaws.com was a real eye opener.
I certainly hope Mr. Reid is correct, in that it won't fly this time either. Seems he thinks there are bigger fish to fry these days. He is correct, and I hope he can convince enough others. Even if the "fish" to fry aren't "bigger", perhaps the Senators will be induced to pay attention to "other" fish anyway.

I'm not so sure that is the case Tio. I think it's more of a case of fear for their jobs. And rightly so. After the AWB was written (by Joe Biden) and passed into law by the dem congress in the '90s, many believe gun control to be political suicide.
Of course they didn't have the Utopian plan of BHO then, but much of the fear is still there, according to the pundits I have read. I do believe BHO thinks he can sell it to the people. And by default he would be allowed to claim he didn't write it, although it's "for the greater good" so he's not responsible, and we're all better off for it.

Of course that makes me wonder about his supporters here and on other gun-sports sites.

Would you still support him if he applied political clout to pass this type of law/treaty? Would that be a deal breaker for you guys, or would you vote his way again?

This CIFTA treaty is beyond scary. One reason is: if Mexico's government are so incompetent and corrupt as to have allowed their present state of war to arise, we already know how well they will uphold their end of this treaty, and how likely they would be to misuse the terms and powers of that treaty to OUR great disadvantage. Remember, there is a rather large faction in Mexico that desires to take back territory formerly held (and ceded by lawful treaty) to the United States. One of the easiest ways to accomplish that is to disarm the residents thereof.

Scary indeed. Just the data, containing an extensive list of gun owners and reloaders, made available to the Mexican (and other) gov'ts that have little or no control over corruption and drug cartels. If they are as organized as we are led to believe, the local gang member/dealers would have your info and inventory.
Nice eh? BHO provides them a list of the ripest targets in every city nationwide.

Sure gives me the warm fuzzies to know this guy's lookin' out for me! <--Sarcasm

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Can someone explain to me why CIFTA is so insidiously dangerous to a citizens gun rights? Not that I am in favor of any treaties with Mexico, but I am ready the proposal and just not seeing how it affects legal gun ownership. What am I missing?

 

[Jamie6.5]

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/49907.htm

What part about this treaty doesn't require registration and tracking of anyone who reloads or works on their own guns? Reloading without being licensed by the Gov't makes your ammo "illicit"

RECOGNIZING the importance of strengthening existing international law enforcement support mechanisms such as the International Weapons and Explosives Tracking System (IWETS) of the International Criminal Police Organization (INTERPOL), to prevent, combat, and eradicate the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials;

REAFFIRMING the principles of sovereignty, nonintervention, and the juridical equality of states,
HAVE DECIDED TO ADOPT THIS INTER-AMERICAN CONVENTION AGAINST THE ILLICIT MANUFACTURING OF AND TRAFFICKING IN FIREARMS, AMMUNITION, EXPLOSIVES, AND OTHER RELATED MATERIALS:

ARTICLE I
Definitions​

For the purposes of this Convention, the following definitions shall apply:

1. "Illicit manufacturing": the manufacture or assembly of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials:

a. from components or parts illicitly trafficked; or

b. without a license from a competent governmental authority of the State Party where the manufacture or assembly takes place; or

c. without marking the firearms that require marking at the time of manufacturing.

2. "Illicit trafficking": the import, export, acquisition, sale, delivery, movement, or transfer of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials from or across the territory of one State Party to that of another State Party, if any one of the States Parties concerned does not authorize it.

3. "Firearms":

a. any barreled weapon which will or is designed to or may be readily converted to expel a bullet or projectile by the action of an explosive, except antique firearms manufactured before the 20th Century or their replicas; or

b. any other weapon or destructive device such as any explosive, incendiary or gas bomb, grenade, rocket, rocket launcher, missile, missile system, or mine.

4. "Ammunition": the complete round or its components, including cartridge cases, primers, propellant powder, bullets, or projectiles that are used in any firearm.

5. "Explosives": any substance or article that is made, manufactured, or used to produce an explosion, detonation, or propulsive or pyrotechnic effect, except:

a. substances and articles that are not in and of themselves explosive; or

b. substances and articles listed in the Annex to this Convention.

6. "Other related materials": any component, part, or replacement part of a firearm, or an accessory which can be attached to a firearm.

Attaching a bi-pod, scope, or sling makes your gun(s) illicit.

Any of the above has the potential to make you a felon. Registering makes you subject to the BATF's no warrant searches.

Do I really need to go on? Post it all here? Will you please read it?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

http://www.state.gov/p/wha/rls/49907.htm

What part about this treaty doesn't require registration and tracking of anyone who reloads or works on their own guns? Reloading without being licensed by the Gov't makes your ammo "illicit"



Attaching a bi-pod, scope, or sling makes your gun(s) illicit.

Any of the above has the potential to make you a felon. Registering makes you subject to the BATF's no warrant searches.

Do I really need to go on? Post it all here? Will you please read it?

No. I am afraid that is not what it says at all. You are taking parts of sentences out of context. Plus, you are just reading definitions and thinking that is the law. You need to be a little more thorough in your reading.

Any gun manufacturer now has to have a state license to operate their business...just as i have to have one to run mine. That is not changing.

Gun manufacturers already have to mark all their guns by law. That is not new.

It does not say attaching accessories to a gun makes it illicit. It simply defines accessories for later reference.

It does not make owning legally produced firearms or accessories a felony. In fact it does not change anything at all about legal firearms.

 

[claypigeon]

No. I am afraid that is not what it says at all. You are taking parts of sentences out of context. Plus, you are just reading definitions and thinking that is the law. You need to be a little more thorough in your reading.

Any gun manufacturer now has to have a state license to operate their business...just as i have to have one to run mine. That is not changing.

Gun manufacturers already have to mark all their guns by law. That is not new.

It does not say attaching accessories to a gun makes it illicit. It simply defines accessories for later reference.

It does not make owning legally produced firearms or accessories a felony. In fact it does not change anything at all about legal firearms.

I think the problem is that the definitions are not very clear. Assembling of weapons without a license is "Illicit manufacturing" according to the definitions above. I assemble my weapons every time I clean them.

I also reload or "assemble" my own ammunition. Will that be considered illicit manufacturing if I don't get licensed? Kinda sounds like it.

I replaced the barrel on my 10/22 with an after market bull barrel and an after market stock. Is that manufacturing? I would call it assembling, which is the definition they are giving to manufacturing.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I think the problem is that the definitions are not very clear. Assembling of weapons without a license is "Illicit manufacturing" according to the definitions above. I assemble my weapons every time I clean them.

No, you re-assemble. There is a big difference.

I also reload or "assemble" my own ammunition. Will that be considered illicit manufacturing if I don't get licensed? Kinda sounds like it

Only if you violate the terms of the law by trafficing the ammunition to Mexico.

 

[Jamie6.5]

Okay, one more time. What part of 1b above do you not understand:

ARTICLE I
Definitions​

For the purposes of this Convention, the following definitions shall apply:

1. "Illicit manufacturing": the manufacture or assembly of firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials:

b. without a license from a competent governmental authority of the State Party where the manufacture or assembly takes place;

So if I want to re-blue. re-scope and put a stock on a milsurp mauser project I need a license. I am assembling from components, a weapon that didn't exist in that form prior.

If I reload ammunition I need a license. I am assembling ammunition from components, which I will no doubt need a license to purchase.

Without a license I am manufacturing illicitly. And therefore subject to federal charges.

The lawyers from the NRA agree with me.
You claim to be rather independent PP. But you're sounding more like every follower of the chosen one I've ever debated, denying facts placed in front of you.

 

[claypigeon]

No, you re-assemble. There is a big difference.

Only if you violate the terms of the law by trafficing the ammunition to Mexico.

ARTICLE IV
Legislative Measures



1. States Parties that have not yet done so shall adopt the necessary legislative or other measures to establish as criminal offenses under their domestic law the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials.

This doesn't say "if" you are trafficking.

And you failed to address the changing of the barrel and stock, on my 10/22.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

So if I want to re-blue. re-scope and put a stock on a milsurp mauser project I need a license. I am assembling from components, a weapon that didn't exist in that form prior.

Nope, not at all...and especially not if you are not shipping it to Mexico afterwards. You are forgetting to understand that the definitions are only applicable to the law spelled out later in the proposal.

You failed to adress the changing of the barrel and stock, on my 10/22.

See above.

Are you doing that then exporting the gun? if not then this proposal has no affect on you or that action.

It is illegal to operate a motor vehicle on a city sidewalk. In that law it defines a motor vehicle. That does not make motor vehicles illegal. The definition is only used for clarification of the term inside the context of the law. The propasal clearly states "manufacture and TRAFFICING of..." This is not rocket science people. Stop allowing yourself to get worked into a tizzy by people that are deliberately misleading you just to cause unrest.

 

[Trlsmn]

Nope, not at all...and especially not if you are not shipping it to Mexico afterwards. You are forgetting to understand that the definitions are only applicable to the law spelled out later in the proposal.

See above.

Are you doing that then exporting the gun? if not then this proposal has no affect on you or that action.

It is illegal to operate a motor vehicle on a city sidewalk. In that law it defines a motor vehicle. That does not make motor vehicles illegal. The definition is only used for clarification of the term inside the context of the law. The propasal clearly states "manufacture and TRAFFICING of..." This is not rocket science people. Stop allowing yourself to get worked into a tizzy by people that are deliberately misleading you just to cause unrest.

I must have missed where it say "if shipped to Mexico"? it says "State party" it does not define "state party".

Sure that may be the intent but we all know that these things often get perverted from their original intent.

To start with why do we need this treaty anyway?

 

[claypigeon]

I am failing to see where it says anything about having to ship them anywhere for it to be illegal.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I must have missed where it say "if shipped to Mexico"? it says "State party" it does not define "state party".

The law deals with interstate trafficking and exporting to other countries. Mexico is an example. The law does not really disallow you from doing anything you are not already disallowed from doing. It is mostly just for show.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I am failing to see where it says anything about having to ship them anywhere for it to be illegal.

That is because you are not reading anything but the definitions. Read the actual proposal. It deals with trafficking of said items.

 

[eldbillbo]

No, you re-assemble. There is a big difference.

How about building from parts kits ?

as it is now you can legally build from a kit

and can build your own receiver provided its not with the intent to sell

so laws are already in place providing and restricting .

If you can't assemble then you can no longer build from a kit as that would be assembly and would open the door to what is illegal to legal search and seizure just to verify if it was assembled prior to the date of enactment of the law. May require registration as evidence.

this law would also be subject to interpretation as it has already proved itself in this discussion .

 

[claypigeon]

That is because you are not reading anything but the definitions. Read the actual proposal. It deals with trafficking of said items.

I have. Here it is again.

ARTICLE IV
Legislative Measures



1. States Parties that have not yet done so shall adopt the necessary legislative or other measures to establish as criminal offenses under their domestic law the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials.

2. Subject to the respective constitutional principles and basic concepts of the legal systems of the States Parties, the criminal offenses established pursuant to the foregoing paragraph shall include participation in, association or conspiracy to commit, attempts to commit, and aiding, abetting, facilitating, and counseling the commission of said offenses.

It does not say illicit manufacturing of "if" you are trafficking.

 

[CEF1959]

I don't get this discussion. Are you really this concerned over a 12 year old treaty that (a) has never been ratified by the US; and (b) if ratified would not impose any direct regulation on firearms?

This treaty you are discussing is of ZERO legal effect in the US. Even if it were ratified by the US Senate (yeah, right), it would still have ZERO effect without Congressional legislation. So we are several steps removed from this thing having any effect at all. And at each point along the way, we'll have an opportunity to influence our Congressmen and Senators.

So I say chill and relax. Wait for something that's actually on the table before getting all worked up. You're paranoia is causing you to waste valuable ammo on ghosts and shadows.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I have. Here it is again.

ARTICLE IV
Legislative Measures



1. States Parties that have not yet done so shall adopt the necessary legislative or other measures to establish as criminal offenses under their domestic law the illicit manufacturing of and trafficking in firearms, ammunition, explosives, and other related materials.

2. Subject to the respective constitutional principles and basic concepts of the legal systems of the States Parties, the criminal offenses established pursuant to the foregoing paragraph shall include participation in, association or conspiracy to commit, attempts to commit, and aiding, abetting, facilitating, and counseling the commission of said offenses.

It does not say illicit manufacturing of "if" you are trafficking.

Yes it does. It states manufacture of AND trafficking..." not "and/or" trafficking.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

How about building from parts kits ?

as it is now you can legally build from a kit

and can build your own receiver provided its not with the intent to sell

so laws are already in place providing and restricting .

If you can't assemble then you can no longer build from a kit as that would be assembly and would open the door to what is illegal to legal search and seizure just to verify if it was assembled prior to the date of enactment of the law. May require registration as evidence.

this law would also be subject to interpretation as it has already proved itself in this discussion .

Unless you are doing any of that and then trafficking the guns interstate you have no problems. You cannot do that now either.

 

[claypigeon]

Yes it does. It states manufacture of AND trafficking..." not "and/or" trafficking.

I would'nt want to fight that word play in court. If the illicit manufacture alone was not an issue then it would not be inluded. If trafficking was the only concern it would be more than covered without mentioning the manufacturing.

 

[claypigeon]

I don't get this discussion. Are you really this concerned over a 12 year old treaty that (a) has never been ratified by the US; and (b) if ratified would not impose any direct regulation on firearms?

This treaty you are discussing is of ZERO legal effect in the US. Even if it were ratified by the US Senate (yeah, right), it would still have ZERO effect without Congressional legislation. So we are several steps removed from this thing having any effect at all. And at each point along the way, we'll have an opportunity to influence our Congressmen and Senators.

So I say chill and relax. Wait for something that's actually on the table before getting all worked up. You're paranoia is causing you to waste valuable ammo on ghosts and shadows.

I would prefer to keep it off the table.