Civility and Discipline

[AGCR]

I am willing to be the skunk at this kumbaya singing garden party.

"Lefty 2A Supporter" is oxymoronic in any context outside of an initiative or referendum vote.

Why? Because they enable the gun controllers with their election votes and they don't have the pull on the left to affect state or national policy making.

False. The Liberal Gun Club has worked hard to get their gun safety curriculum adopted in three states where it now helps more Americans get their CHLs. <broken link removed>
That's a pretty admirable kumbayah for what is considered anti-gun territory: Illinois, Florida and Massachusetts.

 

[Boats]

False. The Liberal Gun Club has worked hard to get their gun safety curriculum adopted in three states where it now helps more Americans get their CHLs. <broken link removed>
That's a pretty admirable kumbayah for what is considered anti-gun territory: Illinois, Florida and Massachusetts.

False? That was REALLY weak tea.

Tell me what you plan to do about Ginny Burdick and Floyd Prozanski. How much pull do you have with Peter Courtney and the Governor?

 

[kumabear17]

I went to the site linked in the message for the Liberal Gun Club. Some of what I read was a struggle for me I'll admit. There have been mention on several other postings that not all gun supporters are hardcore right wing Conservative Republicans. Gun ownership seems to cut across political party lines. I will acknowledge it would/will take me a lot of conversation and then thinking about the discussion to be entirely comfortable with everything covered on the site. I'm old school, as my boss use to call me - an I took it as a complement - I am a college educated blue collar redneck who loves Harleys and guns. My training with guns came from adults when I was 8 and was somewhat professionalized by the Army. That said this Liberal Gun Club is trying to bring in a new element of gun supporters. I can accept that. I don't agree with how many of them voted and reading their forum a lot of them aren't to happy right now. Rather then shun them, maybe we could help them, what's that saying, "...adjust their thinking so they think right..." or something like that.

 

[crankshaft]

The equation of Liberalism with anti-gun politics is a relatively recent development. Conservatives had few qualms with early gun controls which were implemented to keep racial and cultural minorities from being armed. In just one example, there was the 1926 case of Ossian Sweet, a black doctor who defended his home against a lynch mob and was put on trial for murder. Neither the NRA, nor any other gun rights groups showed any interest in defending his use of the 2nd Amendment. It was the American Left who took up his cause, including the socialist labor lawyer Clarence Darrow who declared "The right to defend your home, the right to defend your person, is as sacred a right as any human being could fight for."

That was in 1926, Todays American left is a far different story, I have tried to talk to libs but it almost always results in name calling ect ,when I see the left becoming civil I will be here to listen

 

[fxdc]

Great piece..... Stand as equals and KEEP YOUR POWDER DRY!!!

 

[michaels]

Don't wait for the left or right to become civil. Sift through the information, see what is said. Be sceptical, always be sceptical! But don't worship you're scepticism. It is important to go through history. Not to get more talking points about why the "other side" is fuct, but to see where did this happen? How? Look, realistically, the AWB of 1994, has its roots in the 1986 legislation signed by Ronald Reagan with automatic guns, and the banning of importation in 1989 of certain guns by Bush sr..

So to say that Right=gun rights

Left=bad, too simplistic.

It sure would be nice if life were that easy to categorize, but it's not.

And then there is why are we stuck in a two party system?

It would be so much nicer if we could have 5 major parties with countless minor parties.

Then you could really say party "a" is a bunch of gun grabbing leftist fools.

Or Party "b" is a bunch of gun grabbing right wing ***holes.

Then you could have parties "c" and "d" that disagree on everything, except gun rights.

And I really don't understand party "e" Those crazy floridians. Throw awesome conventions though

We're just not politically set up that way. Neither party truly represents the American people.
There is no way that a country of 300 million, that stretches from the Atlantic to the Pacific, with deserts, plains, mountains, coasts, snow, (semi) tropics could be!

Look, it's the same government leaders, they just change places.
Is that truly a representation of the people? Or is it a one party system with a right and a "left" wing?
I saw an interview with Mos Def, and he said it well, " They pass the presidency around like a party joint"
First the Bushes, then the Clintons.

I have a diehard republican acquaintance that is all for Australian style gun control. he
To call him a RINO is false, because, he's into that right wing crap.
He just doesn't like guns.
Whatever.

And further, I think the real point with civility on a national level is that My father, brother and I all cringe when the NRA speaks. (on a side note, my brother was wondering, if he sent the nra money, would they stop calling?) They miss the point. More or less guns is not the way to stop gun violence (sorry for the use of a non PC term )

We all cringe, because to act rabid and desperate, only makes the work of the gun control folks easier.
If a new awb passes (i don't think it will) I will write a letter to the nra "thanking" them for being one of the best examples of why we need gun control.

Gun violence is the result of desperate people.
The question is, where does the desperation and despair come from?
Yes, most definitely the individual, however, what conditions created this?

 

[Boats]

Assuming the "Liberal Gun Club" has influence is comical.

 

[michaels]

Gunfixx,

I believe there are a few things wrong with your argument.

I didn't hear any whining about name calling. I heard a reasonable request calling on gun right supporters to NOT threaten the lives of people that disagree with them.

The least of these reasons being that it turns people on the fence away from us.

The occupy movement was maligned in the msm.

Instead of talk of the issues, media coverage focused on the homeless, who definitely have legitimate concerns, but are so easy to manipulate into a negative soundbite.

I think a real question about the occupy movement is why did the fbi and other govt. agencies work together to shut it down?

Agree or disagree, the right of the people to assemble.....

Further, how do you know what the liberal gun club is up to?

Most people are not aware of their existence, so it makes sense there is no media coverage.

Obama slams whoever? So what?

To put AGCR on the same footing as the president is not a realistic look at the situation.

I hate to say this for various reasons, but I believe Cornell West's opinion of Obama is correct.

"He's a Rockefeller Republican in Black face"

 

[RB87]

AGCR wrote (on his blog): "No one changes their mind after being threatened, but usually become more hard line."

Indeed. If you can't see why the "right" or just pro self defense/anti gov tyranny crowd is pushing back now, then you haven't been paying attention or living in a bubble. Being Mr. Nice Guy often means you end up being a doormat. I'm often told that only state run healthcare is the cheapest, most fair way to get people healed yet I'm also told a woman's right to choose is sacrosanct (and should be gov funded). I'm called an extremist for pointing out the hypocrisy and inequality of those beliefs, let alone the facts as to why it won't work. Its cognitive disonance plain and simple. The normal response is to call me a misogynist and/or just boggle at my disruption of their talking points.

Rationality is not valued much in our society. Certainly not in politics since the 19th ammendment was passed. Rhetoric rules the day. Emotions, feelings are key, not facts or logic. Constantly being told to play the game, be reasonable, calm and measured doesn't work when the default response is emotional rhetoric, based on the marching of a million moms feeling unsafe for their kids because of a shooting. For further examples, see the tea party racist demonization (now the NRA is the new KKK), feminist hypocrisy over Clinton/Lewinsky, heck even the cheerleading for lorena bobbit in the 90s and sharon osbourne's laughing at sexual mutilation two years ago on her talk show. She couldn't even get through an apology without laughing. Violent rhetoric indeed. Practice what you preach.

Long story short, the progressive left (I won't call them liberals anymore) has pushed me away from my more moderate stances on some political issues by demonizing me for not marching in lock step with their beliefs. They call for civility yet fight like junkyard dogs, shaming left and right. So be it, no more marquis de Queensberry rules for me. Logic, reason, civility but when necessary emotional rhetoric, even "violent" rhetoric. Being too pragmatic usually leads to compromising your beliefs away.


Violent threat from the left:
<broken link removed>

Check twitchy and other sources for tweets of death threats for NRA leaders etc. and for other leaders on all kinds of issues. Violent rhetoric, American as apple pie!

 

[michaels]

RB87,

Be as extreme as you want.

Give up your moderate standards.

Hail Satan, smoke meth and do doughnuts in the field next to my house.

But don't say someone else pushed you there.

Don't say someone else made you do it.

Your opinions are your own, just as mine are mine.

 

[AGCR]

False? That was REALLY weak tea.

Tell me what you plan to do about Ginny Burdick and Floyd Prozanski. How much pull do you have with Peter Courtney and the Governor?

I also wish for stronger tea, but you suggested leftist pro-gun groups has no state level affect and I provided three successes. In addition, it's easy to dismiss the efforts of pro-gun leftism in the early 20th century, but that hard work toward universal gun rights set the foundation for a stronger 2A that Americans of every political belief enjoy today.

 

[dmancornell]

In addition, it's easy to dismiss the efforts of pro-gun leftism in the early 20th century, but that hard work toward universal gun rights set the foundation for a stronger 2A that Americans of every political belief enjoy today.

What's your point? We all know gun control is people control. The rights of people in the nascent left was oppressed in many ways for a long time because they were a minority. But now that the left controls the state, they use the system that once oppressed them to control others.

The left's total fealty to the modern state today nullifies anything and everything their predecessors ever done in the past to roll back imperialism and corporatism. The writings of H.L. Mencken and Albert Jay Nock document the speed with which the left abandoned liberty and embraced totalitarianism as soon as their fellow travelers gained power, with the election of FDR and the implementation of the New Deal.

It only took the progressives 2 years after gaining power to pass NFA34. Thanks for that foundation for a stronger 2A.

 

[206thsense]

We live in a complex world, filled with complicated people who value their gun rights along with many other rights. The community of gun owners and 2A supporters is as wide and diverse as America itself - I hate the mass media assumption that every gun owner is a cousin-humping racist redneck / old *** white guy. In the same vein, I've heard waaaaaay too many "freedom loving" gun owners make derisive remarks about other gun owners because:

-they are immigrants or speak English with an accent
-they support gay rights or gay marriage
-they are a "wrong" religion like Muslim, Sikh, or Heaven-forbid... atheist
-they are pro-choice or feminists

A popular blog I like to read, "The Truth About Guns" has started a photo project inviting gun owners to submit photos of themselves as a viral campaign against stereotypes of gun owners and as a way of uniting the community to defend 2A rights. Some of the photos:

Daniel
I Am a Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Freddy
I Am a Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Dan
I Am a Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

( )
I Am a Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

CJA
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Andy
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Jonathan
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Jenny
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Greg
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

I've forwarded the blog posts to some non-gun owning friends and posted links on Facebook where I have many family / friends who are fence-sitters when it comes to owning a gun and 2A rights. If anything, I hope it promotes more civil discussion.

 

[206thsense]

We live in a complex world, filled with complicated people who value their gun rights along with many other rights. The community of gun owners and 2A supporters is as wide and diverse as America itself - I hate the mass media assumption that every gun owner is a cousin-humping racist redneck / old *** white guy. In the same vein, I've heard waaaaaay too many "freedom loving" gun owners make derisive remarks about other gun owners because:

-they are immigrants or speak English with an accent
-they support gay rights or gay marriage
-they are a "wrong" religion like Muslim, Sikh, or Heaven-forbid... atheist
-they are pro-choice or feminists

A popular blog I like to read, "The Truth About Guns" has started a photo project inviting gun owners to submit photos of themselves as a viral campaign against stereotypes of gun owners and as a way of uniting the community to defend 2A rights. Some of the photos:

Daniel
I Am a Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Freddy
I Am a Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Dan
I Am a Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

( )
I Am a Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

CJA
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Andy
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Jonathan
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Jenny
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

Greg
I Am A Gun Owner | The Truth About Guns

I've forwarded the blog posts to some non-gun owning friends and posted links on Facebook where I have many family / friends who are fence-sitters when it comes to owning a gun and 2A rights. If anything, I hope it promotes more civil discussion, and a true understanding that while the goal of a less violent America is a good one, it's a goal that will NOT be achieve by passing laws that punish / restrict law abiding gun owners.

 

[MikeE]

206thsense - Thanks for those excellent links from the Truth About Guns - really outstanding.

 

[BoonDocks36]

Quite an interesting thread.

It has segued several times, but maintained the Point enough that it kept my interest.

It seems several aspects are missed by both sides in this thread:

Side A: Originator, liberal gun owner, 2A advocate, plus some supporting voices.

Side B: 2A advocates, with a wide range in POV, but centered upon (IMHO) "This IS the last straw."

Me: 62.8 Y/O. VietVet. Once upon a time pacifist, who now understands Gandhi's views on British Gun Control in India. (He was against them, and believed that SELF Defense was inherit in & of man) That view is also Biblical, in both OT & NT. Perhaps, it might possibly be ~Universally Accepted~ as a valid point of LIFE.

No longer a pacifist, but passive of emotions, until the need arises. Conservative, but not a "party-line follower". I learned my dotGOV was dishonest in ~~Spring 1970, the Cambodian Invasion, provided by a used car salesman...

Missing in this thread: Basic Moral Values. (IMHO)

My adopted Grand Mother was a short woman who was a Rosie the Riveter in WWII.

I never heard her say a single bad thing about even our crankiest neighbor, only that it was sad that he felt the way he did.

I am & will be civil. It is in my heritage, not my bloodlines, mind you, my dad Swore like the WWII Naval Seaman he was.

My Heritage, because of my Spiritual acceptance. I ~no longer~ argue F2F with anybody, "argue", to me means loss of emotional control = loss of External Awareness around me.... not a good idea if you have or do carry concealed.

CCW folks ~should be~ "the most polite" folk around!

CCW should be able to ~control~ their temper, emotions, if you will.period, end of sentence....

Name calling? My personal opinion is that comes from those who lack sufficient self control to be able to express themselves, that does NOT take higher education, it Does Take self control.

SUCH is life. On a Forum I used to be on, one person's Sig Line was: "If your life was a BOOK, would your mother want to read it" IOW, to be proud to stand the Moral Ground, have polite discussion and possibly leave off the word between DIS & ION, it makes the conversation more intelligent.

And correcting the one who leaves off the DIS & only cusses.... is needless expended energy.

In the thread was mentioned ... "take another inch" and spoke of start shooting...

That person ~May be correct~ in his view, but NOT in his manner of expressing them!

WE All Know, it may get to that point.

After all, we are talking here of a VIOLENT legal course of action, AGAINST all United States Citizens, a BREECH of contract by dotGOV to its citizens, under the guise of "its for the children"

However, One should hold those kinds of statements, as if they were in their Last game of Five Card Stud Poker: keep your cards close to your body, and remain restrained when viewing them: do not let the table know, by having a "tell" sign upon your face.

And if... When... The time comes, "Aim Small, Hit Small"

All the rest is extraneous....

philip, in the boondocks of HWY36

 

[Boats]

I also wish for stronger tea, but you suggested leftist pro-gun groups has no state level affect and I provided three successes. In addition, it's easy to dismiss the efforts of pro-gun leftism in the early 20th century, but that hard work toward universal gun rights set the foundation for a stronger 2A that Americans of every political belief enjoy today.

I daresay it is easy to dismiss lefty 2A support because the "achievements" ticked off amount to next to nothing. Show me something about your organizations effectively taking on the liberal political orthodoxy on gun control to an extent greater than the equivalent of coming out of closeted gun safe.

Personal statements and neatly edited blogs are all fine and dandy, but they don't even amount to a speed bump against the Jackass party's legislative aims either in DC or Oregon.

 

[DireWolf]

I daresay it is easy to dismiss lefty 2A support because the "achievements" ticked off amount to next to nothing. Show me something about your organizations effectively taking on the liberal political orthodoxy on gun control to an extent greater than the equivalent of coming out of closeted gun safe.

Personal statements and neatly edited blogs are all fine and dandy, but they don't even amount to a speed bump against the Jackass party's legislative aims either in DC or Oregon.

Those rushing noises are the points flying over your head.

 

[DireWolf]

Really? Rather than making a wise crack, enlighten us please, as to just what it is our Liberal 2A supporters are dong that has some teeth in it.
We need your help.
What is it again that you are doing?
What achievements?

You worry about wisecracks, but your last several posts on this have been nothing but derision that a group hasn't "done enough".

In one post, you say "harden up" (that was absolutely precious), and in the other, you opine "We need your help."

Whatever. You missed the points too.

 

[Bob D]

My problem with saying that "you can't be a 2nd Amendment supporter if you vote for liberals" is that we each probably have a lot of issues that we have opinions on, gun rights being one of them. I think it would be awesome for a candidate that exactly matches my personal beliefs on every issue to make it into the mainstream political scene, but that simply isn't the case.

If a person believes strongly in free access to firearms, but also believes strongly that gays should be able to marry whoever they want, health care should be readily accessible by all american citizens, and women should be able to do what they want with their reproductive organs, then that person has a tough choice to make on who to vote for.