Citizens of 19 states and counting pushing for secession.

[dmancornell]

You seem to love being wrong and pontificating your own ignorance. Actually, almost all modernized countries have Government run school systems. Also, no, schools DO NOT have as many administrators as teachers. That is a lie. And the average school teacher salary only seems decent when they add the multi-million dollar salaries of college level coaches.

The fact you capitalize the word "government" is indicative of your idiocy. Just go look up the education systems in European countries. They are run by *local* government, with very little control at the national level. My point is that federal control of American K-12 schools is the problem, a point which you stupidly refuse to acknowledge.

As for administrators, in some districts administrators outnumber teachers. Just count up all the useless bureaucrats outside the school buildings who oversee federal regulation, you will see that the overhead is enormous. The cost per student in the US versus everywhere else in the world confirms this, you are deliberately ignorant to deny the numbers.

As for the corporations good will to it's locals, I do not think fear mongering is needed. You can just look at history in this country and how they behave with their over-seas divisions. You can even just look at how the coal mines in WV are currently treating the people that live near them. I guess you would never do that though since the information would not support your own preconceived (most likely Rush generated) opinions. (Now is the part where you claim to never listen to right wing talking heads.)

How they behave overseas? You mean giving people employment where none existed? If you object to Nike or Apple paying their workers $2 an hour (which is quite generous for those countries), don't buy their products.

Also implying a hungry press wouldn't instantly expose any *real* wrongdoing. Meanwhile the same press ignores the malfeasance done by your precious government every day, go figure.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

The fact you capitalize the word "government" is indicative of your idiocy. Just go look up the education systems in European countries. They are run by *local* government, with very little control at the national level. My point is that federal control of American K-12 schools is the problem, a point which you stupidly refuse to acknowledge.

As for administrators, in some districts administrators outnumber teachers. Just count up all the useless bureaucrats outside the school buildings who oversee federal regulation, you will see that the overhead is enormous. The cost per student in the US versus everywhere else in the world confirms this, you are deliberately ignorant to deny the numbers.



How they behave overseas? You mean giving people employment where none existed? If you object to Nike or Apple paying their workers $2 an hour (which is quite generous for those countries), don't buy their products.

Also implying a hungry press wouldn't instantly expose any *real* wrongdoing. Meanwhile the same press ignores the malfeasance done by your precious government every day, go figure.

Name one county in Oregon or Washington where administrators out number teachers. Let me guess what you might try. You might try to use that number Sizemore tried to use years ago where he claimed there were two administrators for every three teachers. A number he created by looking at only one district that had only three schools yet housed the main bus terminal for the entire three county area. He then counted schoolbus drives, janitors, parent volunteers, and maintenance people as "administrators" since they weren't teachers. Also, you are once again wrong about educational standards being set by local governments. They are not. The national governments of almost all industrialized nations set the national minimum standards for education. Please cite your sources that say otherwise.

As for their overseas behavior, you can use that "they give employment to the poor old worthless rejects who live there that would have none otherwise" but that does not change the fact they only pay the national average, they do not treat their employees well, and they regularly pollute if allowed. Plus, just how were corporations treating people before the government passed regulations here? Let's take a look. Here are some public political stances taken by corporation in recent US history...

1842-If workers can legally strike no business will survive.
1887-Pay blacks $1 a day for labor and you might as well shut all corporate doors.
1912-Proposed anti-sweatshop laws would be the death of industry in America.
1915-Proposed laws stopping corporations from firing all union members will close all businesses in the US.
1924-Proposed ban on child labor will destroy US economy.
1938-Proposed 40 hour work week will destroy American economy
1964-Proposed equal pay act for women and minorities will destroy business in US.
1970-Health and safety laws will shut the doors of all US industry within 5 years.

Sounds like they have a great history of looking out for the little guy.

 

[Stomper]

I would be more curious to see how much of the education budgets of the various school districts goes towards PERS (Public Employee Retirement System) instead of actual classroom operations. I'll bet its a disproportionate amount... anyone have concrete figures?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

I would be more curious to see how much of the education budgets of the various school districts goes towards PERS (Public Employee Retirement System) instead of actual classroom operations. I'll bet its a disproportionate amount... anyone have concrete figures?

You would be appalled. I know I was. Of course the part that is appalling is not what goes to teachers. That is a small amount. What is appalling is the amount that goes to former college level coaches. In fact, at the time, 12 of the top 20 highest PERS payouts were to coaches...period. These coaches multimillion dollar deals are considered in the "teachers" category. Some coaches were making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for just a few years of actual active coaching.

 

[slingshot1943]

If all of the states secede, would it remain the same?

Ideally you would only have states without the big failing leftist cities.

 

[Stomper]

Meh, that wouldn't surprise me, after all college sports is a HUGE moneymaker for the schools. Coaches already get huge paychecks... Suresh. I don't have anything against sports in general, but I find it "amusing" how "vested" average folks get in the stuff.

I lost interest as a kid because of all the nepotism of coaches and their kids (or favorites) and the "jocks" stacking the deck by all being on the same team against all the "nerds"... then carrying on about how great they were because of the "preordained" win...

I'm quite athletic (for my age... LOL), but have no use for the entire spectrum, actually.

 

[dmancornell]

Also, you are once again wrong about educational standards being set by local governments. They are not. The national governments of almost all industrialized nations set the national minimum standards for education. Please cite your sources that say otherwise.

There's a difference between standards (i.e. curriculum guidelines), and massive oversight like in the US (where even the lunch caloric count is regulated). Quick example:

Education in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First line: The responsibility for the German education system lies primarily with the states (Länder) while the federal government plays only a minor role.

I also know for a fact the Belgium system is locally run, those are the two I am personally familiar with. Both of which cost far less per student than the US and do better in tests.

Sounds like they have a great history of looking out for the little guy.

Wait, are you telling me private companies actually owe these people jobs? Oh gosh, these robber barons have the nerve to not pay the wage they demand. Hey, maybe I should go to my employer and ask to double my salary tomorrow. By your argument, it would be oppression if they refused.

All those laws (minimum wage, child labor, etc) are all BS, a job is a voluntary contract between an employer and employee. You don't like underage workers? Don't buy stuff from companies that hire them. I started holding part time employment since I was 16, I wish I could have started earlier but was prevented by the bureaucratic law.

By the way, it looks like the unions did indeed destroy American manufacturing in the long run. Oh the irony.

 

[dmancornell]

You would be appalled. I know I was. Of course the part that is appalling is not what goes to teachers. That is a small amount. What is appalling is the amount that goes to former college level coaches. In fact, at the time, 12 of the top 20 highest PERS payouts were to coaches...period. These coaches multimillion dollar deals are considered in the "teachers" category. Some coaches were making hundreds of thousands of dollars a year for just a few years of actual active coaching.

Well, if you hate college sports so much, why don't you blame your beloved government for allowing the NCAA to run a monopoly?

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

There's a difference between standards (i.e. curriculum guidelines), and massive oversight like in the US (where even the lunch caloric count is regulated). Quick example:

Education in Germany - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

First line: The responsibility for the German education system lies primarily with the states (Länder) while the federal government plays only a minor role.

I also know for a fact the Belgium system is locally run, those are the two I am personally familiar with. Both of which cost far less per student than the US and do better in tests.



Wait, are you telling me private companies actually owe these people jobs? Oh gosh, these robber barons have the nerve to not pay the wage they demand. Hey, maybe I should go to my employer and ask to double my salary tomorrow. By your argument, it would be oppression if they refused.

All those laws (minimum wage, child labor, etc) are all BS, a job is a voluntary contract between an employer and employee. You don't like underage workers? Don't buy stuff from companies that hire them. I started holding part time employment since I was 16, I wish I could have started earlier but was prevented by the bureaucratic law.

By the way, it looks like the unions did indeed destroy American manufacturing in the long run. Oh the irony.

That is how it works here too bucko. I suggest you learn something before speaking. The German government sets the standard but does not hire the teachers or run the schools. We do the same here. We have local school boards, hire teachers locally, and implement policy on a state level. States even chose their own textbooks.

As for corporations, nice try on changing the topic. I can understand why you would want to but your original position was these corporations would do good by their workers and neighbors without government interference. That doesn't seem to hold water historically or in any industrialized nation.

And, lets get this straight, you feel it is the worker that wants a fair wages fault when jobs are shipped overseas and not the company that was profitable here that moves overseas to make a bigger profit? So it is the little guy's fault.

 

[dmancornell]

That is how it works here too bucko. I suggest you learn something before speaking. The German government sets the standard but does not hire the teachers or run the schools. We do the same here. We have local school boards, hire teachers locally, and implement policy on a state level. States even chose their own textbooks.

All of which have to abide by a metric ton of federal regulations. It's called oversight. You realize the regulations run so far as to dictate the caloric content of student lunches? How stupid are you to not see this?

As for corporations, nice try on changing the topic. I can understand why you would want to but your original position was these corporations would do good by their workers and neighbors without government interference. That doesn't seem to hold water historically or in any industrialized nation.

Actually the libertarian stance is that using government violence to force change is wrong, change should be voluntarily driven by customers (which the private sector has to please, unlike the government) refusing to patronize companies who undertake immoral actions.

It has worked many times. Henry Ford voluntarily paid a higher wage to reduce turnover. Henry Kroc exceeded existing sanitary guidelines and used it as a selling point. I could go on, but you are obviously so invested in the statist rhetoric it'd be a waste of time.

And, lets get this straight, you feel it is the worker that wants a fair wages fault when jobs are shipped overseas and not the company that was profitable here that moves overseas to make a bigger profit? So it is the little guy's fault.

Fairness is a subjective term. If you think some company's practices are unfair, don't work for them and don't buy their stuff. As for shipping jobs overseas, why the hell should I be forced to pay more for domestically made goods? Protectionism is nothing more than noncompetitive sectors being kept alive by government force to satisfy special interests. Same as the corporatist BS you supposedly hate.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

All of which have to abide by a metric ton of federal regulations. It's called oversight. You realize the regulations run so far as to dictate the caloric content of student lunches? How stupid are you to not see this?

No, it is the same in Germany and most of Europe. they set minimum standards and then it is up to the states to implement them. Just like here. States are required in the US to make their own budgets, hire there own teachers, and decide upon their own curriculums.

Actually the libertarian stance is that using government violence to force change is wrong, change should be voluntarily driven by customers (which the private sector has to please, unlike the government) refusing to patronize companies who undertake immoral actions.

It has worked many times. Henry Ford voluntarily paid a higher wage to reduce turnover. Henry Kroc exceeded existing sanitary guidelines and used it as a selling point. I could go on, but you are obviously so invested in the statist rhetoric it'd be a waste of time.

And just were is that working anywhere in the world? Or has it worked anywhere in history?

Fairness is a subjective term. If you think some company's practices are unfair, don't work for them and don't buy their stuff. As for shipping jobs overseas, why the hell should I be forced to pay more for domestically made goods? Protectionism is nothing more than noncompetitive sectors being kept alive by government force to satisfy special interests. Same as the corporatist BS you supposedly hate.

So you would not pay more for domestic goods that support domestic workers? Some patriot you are. I hope you are not an example of most libertarians.

PS: Still waiting on those numbers regarding districts with more administrators than teachers.

 

[dmancornell]

No, it is the same in Germany and most of Europe. they set minimum standards and then it is up to the states to implement them. Just like here. States are required in the US to make their own budgets, hire there own teachers, and decide upon their own curriculums.

Go check the US Dept of Education budget vs the European national budget per student. Off by a couple orders of magnitude. That is the cost of regulation.

And just were is that working anywhere in the world? Or has it worked anywhere in history?

Worked pretty well in the latter half of the 19th century in the US. It did make this country the most prosperous country in the world, where people all over the world wanted to emigrate to.

Of course there is no example of a libertarian approach to business in the modern age, but that doesn't prove it won't work. As Bastiat described, this is an example of what is seen not disproving what is not seen.

So you would not pay more for domestic goods that support domestic workers? Some patriot you are. I hope you are not an example of most libertarians.

Actually I do, but only for some products and of my own choosing. I will be damned if that choice is to be taken from me by greedy union parasites.

Also LOL @ patriotism. As always, the last refuge of the scoundrel.

PS: Still waiting on those numbers regarding districts with more administrators than teachers.

Meh, got better things to do than to dig up hard-to-find numbers for a statist. Even a single federally mandated administrator is too many. You're still failing to provide a half-decent explanation to why the US is so cost-ineffective.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Go check the US Dept of Education budget vs the European national budget per student. Off by a couple orders of magnitude. That is the cost of regulation.

You mean the facts that show we spend a smaller percentage of GNP on education than...
Sweden
Austria
Switzerland
Norway
Belgium
Denmark
Japan
Canada
W. Germany
France
Netherlands
U.K.
Italy

Is that what you want me to look at?

Worked pretty well in the latter half of the 19th century in the US. It did make this country the most prosperous country in the world, where people all over the world wanted to emigrate to.

They came here with the promise of work and quickly found themselves exploited with the emergence of corporatism. Living in squalor and being abused with little hope or recourse. Learn some history.

Of course there is no example of a libertarian approach to business in the modern age, but that doesn't prove it won't work. As Bastiat described, this is an example of what is seen not disproving what is not seen.

Not a valid use of that principle. The plan proposed by libertarians has been used before...and failed many times in many countries. It is not "what has not been seen" it is "what has proven to fail."

Meh, got better things to do than to dig up hard-to-find numbers for a statist. Even a single federally mandated administrator is too many. You're still failing to provide a half-decent explanation to why the US is so cost-ineffective.

So what you are saying is you are too busy to actually know what you are talking about before flapping your lips.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Publick educamation is merely socialist brainwashing.. young minds full of mush being indoctrinated into suicide. No child of mine would set foot in such an institiution

None of the back and forth arguments about the "merits" of such an evil system matter one bit to me

 

[dmancornell]

You mean the facts that show we spend a smaller percentage of GNP on education than...

Is that what you want me to look at?

Hah, saw that link, which conveniently excludes pensions, administrative overhead, and all the other crap that goes with the US teachers' union and the federal government. Nice try though.

They came here with the promise of work and quickly found themselves exploited with the emergence of corporatism. Living in squalor and being abused with little hope or recourse. Learn some history.

By being abused, do you mean living better than where they emigrated from? Oh snap, they were abused by entering a voluntary contract of employment and not living at some arbitrary standard set by wealth redistributionists years afterwards.

Not a valid use of that principle. The plan proposed by libertarians has been used before...and failed many times in many countries. It is not "what has not been seen" it is "what has proven to fail."

Oh yeah? When was it tried?

So what you are saying is you are too busy to actually know what you are talking about before flapping your lips.

LOL seriously look in the mirror. Your insane hatred of the private sector is hilarious. If people like you can only explain how corporations can be the cause of all the world's problems, when the state has an absolute monopoly on violence, and the ability to create fiat money from thin air.

 

[PlayboyPenguin]

Hah, saw that link, which conveniently excludes pensions, administrative overhead, and all the other crap that goes with the US teachers' union and the federal government. Nice try though.

before I tear you up on this one I wan to make sure your assertions is we pay better retirement benefits to teachers than these other countries?

By being abused, do you mean living better than where they emigrated from? Oh snap, they were abused by entering a voluntary contract of employment and not living at some arbitrary standard set by wealth redistributionists years afterwards.

Once again, learn some history before talking. Many immigrants found themselves in WORSE conditions after coming here and had no means to leave and had no recourse against the companies that were abusing them. Unions did not just spontaneously create. they sprung from need.

Oh yeah? When was it tried?

I will start citing you some examples, which you should already know by now if you follow the libertarian mindset like you say you do, as soon as you produce some of your numbers.

LOL seriously look in the mirror. Your insane hatred of the private sector is hilarious. If people like you can only explain how corporations can be the cause of all the world's problems, when the state has an absolute monopoly on violence, and the ability to create fiat money from thin air.

Hatred of the private sector? I have owned multiple businesses. Since when does a realization that money and power corrupts translate into hatred for the private sector. I know that is a catch phrase you learned from Rush, but it really is absurd.

 

[dmancornell]

before I tear you up on this one I wan to make sure your assertions is we pay better retirement benefits to teachers than these other countries?

Lifetime pension, guaranteed returns? Seems pretty cushy, especially for the horrible job they do mis-educating the youth.

Once again, learn some history before talking. Many immigrants found themselves in WORSE conditions after coming here and had no means to leave and had no recourse against the companies that were abusing them. Unions did not just spontaneously create. they sprung from need.

And yet, they stayed. Strange. As for unions, sure go ahead and organize. But forcing companies to retain union workers they do not want is nothing more than government violence.

I will start citing you some examples, which you should already know by now if you follow the libertarian mindset like you say you do, as soon as you produce some of your numbers.

I gave two examples of moral actions driven by the free market, you have nothing but union soundbites.

Hatred of the private sector? I have owned multiple businesses. Since when does a realization that money and power corrupts translate into hatred for the private sector. I know that is a catch phrase you learned from Rush, but it really is absurd.

LOL, you say you know money and power corrupts, and yet you place all your faith in the federal regime, literally the most corrupt entity in the entire country.

Also implying that drug-addled jackass Rush Limbaugh is a libertarian in any shape or form.

 

[Kevatc]

It's not whether I'll pass it on, but whether that money will even be there by the time I retire. At the current rate of spending, the odds are basically nil.

For the sake of argument lets stipulate that SS and Medicare will be available when you retire Will you put your money where your mouth is or will you be a hypocrite and find some way to justify you being a "taker"?

 

[Bacchus]

I think the states are just having some fun, scaring the liberals ... this time. After all, they need us but we don't need them.