Citizens Committee for the RKBA trying to compromise on hb1588

[HuckFin]

Dave Workman, this may be a stupid queston....But You stated in post #20 that there would be "No Record Keeping". If that is so, how are they going to know that I sold my handgun to my trusted neighbor......So what I'm saying is: Why would I bother to go through the background check in the 1st place.

 

[Kable]

Dave Workman, this may be a stupid queston....But You stated in post #20 that there would be "No Record Keeping". If that is so, how are they going to know that I sold my handgun to my trusted neighbor......So what I'm saying is: Why would I bother to go through the background check in the 1st place.

And there you have the exact reason why this is pointless. It will do nothing and is unenforceable without requiring registration which better not ever happen and wouldn't be completely effective either

 

[Dave Workman]

Dave Workman, this may be a stupid queston....But You stated in post #20 that there would be "No Record Keeping". If that is so, how are they going to know that I sold my handgun to my trusted neighbor......So what I'm saying is: Why would I bother to go through the background check in the 1st place.

It's the same way right now with NICS.. they destroy the background check record after 24 hours, to prevent a de facto gun registry.

Look, I don't fundamentally disagree with the sentiment that checks really don't impact criminals, but we have an opportunity here, as Duane Black notes, to get something out of this beyond a broomhandle enema, which is likely what will occur in the event an initiative gets launched.

All bets are off, and frankly, going down swinging in a situation like this only emboldens the anti-gunners to come and kick the carcass.

However, if we take the high ground, show that we were at least engaged rather than buried our heads in the sand, we just might be able to convince voters to oppose some "extremist" ballot measure. We did that with I-676 back in 1997. This time it will be harder because of the way the voting population has changed and turned even more blue despite a pretty good red contingent outside of the I-5 corridor.

Lastly, I'm getting pretty tired of this "compromise" horse fazoo.

Nobody has "compromised" anything here. What Gottlieb HAS done is show a willingness to talk to the lawmakers and he offered them some conditions. They could have just as easily told him to pound sand, "we're going to shove a bill in your backside and you'll live with it."

As I mentioned earlier, our community has a penchant for ganging up on one another. Some people were calling Gottlieb a "traitor" for even talking to lawmakers, a notion that is simply astonishing.

There has been no amended version of the bill, to see what is actually in it.

I will tell you this. Anti-gunners watch these forums. They see people fighting amongst themselves and sit back and chuckle. It tells them they really don't have to offer us anything because we'll eat our own.

 

[kumabear17]

Mr. Workman, I strongly disagree with you and with Mr. Gottlieb. You call this negotiating and taking the high road (that's what McCain did, right?)? Why? Owning a firearm is a right and it is being suggested we negotiate this right or the Liberal powers in place will pass a law that will restrict out rights further. They are already doing that. Negotiating as you call it is just putting off till next year what the start this year. Do you really trust these Liberal Democrats? When have they ever stuck to their promises? Yes, we could loose in an initiative vote. Okay. Live with it. We are going to all loose anyway of we keep "taking the high road" and saying things like, well maybe we can give up a little if you promise you won't take more later on. Go for it That idea has worked well in California, New York and Illinois.

 

[Dave Workman]

Mr. Workman, I strongly disagree with you and with Mr. Gottlieb. You call this negotiating and taking the high road (that's what McCain did, right?)? Why? Owning a firearm is a right and it is being suggested we negotiate this right or the Liberal powers in place will pass a law that will restrict out rights further. They are already doing that. Negotiating as you call it is just putting off till next year what the start this year. Do you really trust these Liberal Democrats? When have they ever stuck to their promises? Yes, we could loose in an initiative vote. Okay. Live with it. We are going to all loose anyway of we keep "taking the high road" and saying things like, well maybe we can give up a little if you promise you won't take more later on. Go for it That idea has worked well in California, New York and Illinois.

Okay, then.
We've established there is a disagreement.
So, please explain your strategy for eliminating this problem. I'm not trying to be confrontational or combative here. It is quite possible you have a workable, possible (emphasis on"possible") solution.

Details. Strategic and financial.

Note:
You can't simply say "Live by the constitution" and that's it. Nobody simply snaps a finger and makes the boogey man go away.

 

[chariot13]

Okay, then.
We've established there is a disagreement.
So, please explain your strategy for eliminating this problem. I'm not trying to be confrontational or combative here. It is quite possible you have a workable, possible (emphasis on"possible") solution.

Details. Strategic and financial.

Note:
You can't simply say "Live by the constitution" and that's it. Nobody simply snaps a finger and makes the boogey man go away.

I propose we kill all those that are against us who "Live by the constitution".

That's my "strategy for eliminating this problem".

"support and defend" doesn't lay out an option of amnesty.

As far as financial you can have all the spoils, i hear the communist manifesto fetches a pretty penny on russian ebay.

 

[Dave Workman]

I propose we kill all those that are against us who "Live by the constitution".

That's my "strategy for eliminating this problem".

"support and defend" doesn't lay out an option of amnesty.

As far as financial you can have all the spoils, i hear the communist manifesto fetches a pretty penny on russian ebay.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

Let's discuss rational alternatives...a viable strategy for eliminating the problem.

 

[duane black]

Dave,

Do you KNOW this is going to pass, without question. ? I don't believe any of us are willing to throw up our hands and make a deal with the devil.

I understand fully what saf is trying to do. Do they know something we don't ? Do the gun grabbers have enough support for this ?

Alot of us have been phoning these folks daily and letting them know we will work against them the rest of their political lives if we get this bubblegum.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

 

[chariot13]

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

Let's discuss rational alternatives...a viable strategy for eliminating the problem.

What I said is a very rational alternative. To place death upon all those that would suggest/endorse & implement a law that makes you or I a felon for what we do today legally.

 

[chariot13]

Dave,

Do you KNOW this is going to pass, without question. ? I don't believe any of us are willing to throw up our hands and make a deal with the devil.

I understand fully what saf is trying to do. Do they know something we don't ? Do the gun grabbers have enough support for this ?

Alot of have been phoning you these folks daily and letting them know we will work against them the rest of their political lives if we get this bubblegum.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

You are right. You do not make a deal with the devil. The compromisers are willing to slowly let the supposedly otherside, slowly chip away at whatever little freedom we have. How many laws are made each year? Tens of thousands. How many are repealed each year? Very few. We are allowing them to compromise & legislate our lives into the likes of the perameters of a computer program. Soon there will be no room for error. There already is some expectation of such obviously. Everyone is expected to be perfect, or else. Thinking they can be defeated by votes or phone calls is what they want you to think. They want us to be shlubs. They can not be defeated at their own game by the rules they have made up. They know this. It will take the slaves to uprise one day. That is the only way.

 

[pchewn]

Okay, then.
We've established there is a disagreement.
So, please explain your strategy for eliminating this problem. I'm not trying to be confrontational or combative here. It is quite possible you have a workable, possible (emphasis on"possible") solution.

Details. Strategic and financial.

Strategy #1 fight against all of these additional gun-control laws.
Strategy #2 suggest ways to make these additional gun-control laws "less bad"
A) As outlined above (eliminate information storage or registry, exempt for CPL, etc)
B) Add a short-term expiration date to all gun-control measures so they only hit us for a short period of time (as the AWB expired), and then can be automatically abandoned and difficult to re-enact when they are shown to be ineffective against criminals and counter-effective against "good guys".
Strategy #3 continue to fight against these additional gun-control laws
Strategy #4 Write our own bills that eliminate, reduce, or abolish existing gun-control laws. Write as many as the opposition do.
Strategy #5 File lawsuits when actual "good people" are harmed by following or not following gun-control laws (as is being done by SAF and others)
Strategy #6 Continue to fight against these addtional gun-control laws
Strategy #7 Promote candidates that are pro-gun and fight against candidates that are anti-gun.

The automatic expiration of the assault weapon ban is probably the ONLY good part of the original AWB legislation. Without that auto-expire, we would currently still have the AWB in place.

 

[chariot13]

Strategy #1 fight against all of these additional gun-control laws.
Strategy #2 suggest ways to make these additional gun-control laws "less bad"
A) As outlined above (eliminate information storage or registry, exempt for CPL, etc)
B) Add a short-term expiration date to all gun-control measures so they only hit us for a short period of time (as the AWB expired), and then can be automatically abandoned and difficult to re-enact when they are shown to be ineffective against criminals and counter-effective against "good guys".
Strategy #3 continue to fight against these additional gun-control laws
Strategy #4 Write our own bills that eliminate, reduce, or abolish existing gun-control laws. Write as many as the opposition do.
Strategy #5 File lawsuits when actual "good people" are harmed by following or not following gun-control laws (as is being done by SAF and others)
Strategy #6 Continue to fight against these addtional gun-control laws
Strategy #7 Promote candidates that are pro-gun and fight against candidates that are anti-gun.

And i dont see anything in any of these strategy's that suggest you use force against them when they do not comply, the same force the government is going to use if you do not comply.

It's not a government, for the people by the people, its a government, for the government by the government. In order to correct this you must be a people, for the people by the people.

 

[JGRuby]

What I said is a very rational alternative. To place death upon all those that would suggest/endorse & implement a law that makes you or I a felon for what we do today legally.

This is the type of arguement that gun control people will use to ban guns - "dont agree with me you die".

James Ruby

 

[pchewn]

And i dont see anything in any of these strategy's that suggest you use force against them when they do not comply, the same force the government is going to use if you do not comply.

The battles must be fought in the courts, in the legislature, and in the media. They cannot be fought in the streets. I am unwilling (yet) to go there.

 

[chariot13]

This is the type of arguement that gun control people will use to ban guns - "dont agree with me you die".

James Ruby

So you think the people that are going to make you a felon later, if you continue to do what you do legally today, should just go about their way in doing so? The only way you can say yes is if you think you're gonna be exempt from being labeled a felon & sitting in a prison for up to 10 years. The only people that will be exempt from this will be the government workers that are willing to enforce said law. I don't care what any of you that'll enforce such a law think.

 

[duane black]

The battles must be fought in the courts, in the legislature, and in the media. They cannot be fought in the streets. I am unwilling (yet) to go there.

I actually agree. At least not here in WA. I have lived in a place where it was an awful lot closer than it is here. As I have said before, my rep agrees with me when I send him letters.

There is no doubt Pacific Northwesterners love their guns. WA has an absolute bublegum load of people with CPLs. I did the math and we have more per capita than Texas. Almost 3 times as many per my research.

I bet even more now since sandy hook / clackamas tc.

This is significant. We can change things here. We just need to work at it.

 

[James 61]

Normally I would be on the band wagon of no compromise. However I'm trying to take the long view here so bear with me.

So let me see if I have this right. If we support this bill we end up with removal of a regrestry which is something we can all agree is a good thing. Then we gain some political capital and goodwill by appearing to be sane and rational to the public. Given the number of exemptions there are I dont see how this is going to change how the vast majority of us conduct private sells. The two face to face sells I've done, I've required the buyer to present a valid state drivers license and a chl/cwp. I do this as a means of ensuring I'm not selling to a prohibited individual. I also know from browsing the ads that the vast majority of sellers do the same. So Once again I fail to see how this bill, if passed, would change how any of us do business.

Disadvantages:
Yes it goes against the grain to compromise when so many of us, my self included, feel that so many of our rights including the 2nd Ammendment in the case are under attack. I take the oath I swore all those years ago as a 18 year kid at MEPS very seriously and I fear for the future of our country. I'm also concerned that if we are to stubborn and stiff necked that we will lose this fight and end up with the very thing that we fear. We need to fight smart and cunning, otherwise as someone said we will end up with the broom stick.

The only real possible down side I can see is for people who aren't family, chl holders or gun show members. On the plus side maybe it would encourage more people to get their permit which is a stat that can be tracked and it will show the politicians there are more of us and a force to be recond with.

Advantages:
One possible benefit I can see with supporting this bill is that by appearing to be reasonable in this situation it shows the public that we can recognize good laws from bad. That way when we do decide to oppose a bill the fact that we have shown the public, and some politicians, that we have a history of supporting sensible bills should help us out when we are in opposition to a bill. Think about how much easier it will be to lift the restrictions in this state on NFA items if we have a better public image. Or how about resisting the craziness coming out of Seattle these days. If we come across to the public as normal maybe it will help discredit the Seattle mayor and marginalize his positions.

Also if we can diffuse the tensions by supporting a toothless and meaningless bill that has no real effect on us but appeases the public we win and avoid the possibility that some out of state elitist buys a law that is far more damaging. We may even be able to severely curtail the endless stream of anti-gun legislation being introduced this session because the politicians will be able to tell their constituents that they did something to curb "gun violence".

I know it is not a perfect situation but the truth is there is no such thing. The reality, as much as I hate it, is that horse trading, what have you done for me today and whats in it for me is the way politicis work. Maybe we can get a quid pro quo out of the politicians to support HB2099 and/or HB 1371.

If we can help pass a "feel good" law that is so toothless that it has absolutely no effect on the real world, destroy the current registration, put a stop, if even temporary, on the assult on the 2nd Ammendment and possible build us some goodwill with the public then I think we can caulk this one up as a win.

 

[JGRuby]

So you think the people that are going to make you a felon later, if you continue to do what you do legally today, should just go about their way in doing so? The only way you can say yes is if you think you're gonna be exempt from being labeled a felon & sitting in a prison for up to 10 years. The only people that will be exempt from this will be the government workers that are willing to enforce said law. I don't care what any of you that'll enforce such a law think.

I beleive that threatening people with death is exactly the mentality that got us here in the first place. Death because you disagree with them and how they beleive - which are both rights to my knowledge, these are still legal in this country of ours. I am one of many in this country as are you and hence are bound by the laws that are created in this country, now and in the past. If you choose to be jury, judge and executioner because laws are passed that you dont agree with then I feel that you are nothing more than an vigilante. Now if you choose to use the legal system and try to change or make laws that have actual purpose I will support you all the way. Violence may be needed someday but not because someone beleives differently than you do.

I feel that someday I may become a criminal but would hope that it is not because some one beleives differently than I do. My intent in owning a firearm is to protect mine from those that wish to do them harm. I hope and pray that I never need to take a life but find that there is a greater shame in not being prepared to if needed to protect my own.

Respectfully

James Ruby

 

[chariot13]

I beleive that threatening people with death is exactly the mentality that got us here in the first place. Death because you disagree with them and how they beleive - which are both rights to my knowledge, these are still legal in this country of ours. I am one of many in this country as are you and hence are bound by the laws that are created in this country, now and in the past. If you choose to be jury, judge and executioner because laws are passed that you dont agree with then I feel that you are nothing more than an vigilante. Now if you choose to use the legal system and try to change or make laws that have actual purpose I will support you all the way. Violence may be needed someday but not because someone beleives differently than you do.

I feel that someday I may become a criminal but would hope that it is not because some one beleives differently than I do. My intent in owning a firearm is to protect mine from those that wish to do them harm. I hope and pray that I never need to take a life but find that there is a greater shame in not being prepared to if needed to protect my own.

Respectfully

James Ruby

No I dont believe it should be death because someone simply disagree's with you, but anythings reasonable to me after they have made 'a law abiding citizen' today, a felon & placed them in prison for 10 years tomorrow.

Btw anyone that would place you in prison for 10 years in the future because of HB 3200 & so forth, are willing to do so simply because you disagreed with them.

 

[JGRuby]

That is a really great question - but that question must be asked of ourselves and not garnered from a blog. I know when it becomes neccesary to me. I do not expect others to make that decision for me because there are great consequences with that choice. I will listen and I will stay alert but since I have left the military I will choose for what I am willing to put my life on the line for and it will be for more than the simple legal ownership of a firearm. DO you really expect that they will ever take away all the firearms in this country? As I have said elsewhere on this board if they ever come for my firearms when I am done one way or another I will no longer need them. There are alot of chicken littles on this board that even if it was raining gold coins that they would be crying that the sky was falling. The hysteria at times to me is unbeleivable.

James Ruby