Cheap vs expensive dies

[Alexx1401]

Thanks for the tip on the Lee crimp die. I was wondering about relying on the seating die for a crimp, or using a dedicated crimping die. I think I'll buy one to see how I like it.

Assuming you are talking handgun rounds here? Then yes, Lee Carbide and the Lee FC are fantastic. When I started rolling I had seen it done a couple times. Bought a Lee kit. Was told their stuff was crap, don't waste your money. Well they were wrong. At that time a set of Lee Carbide cost 50% of what name brand steel dies cost. When the FC came along I tried one and loved it. Now if you ever get into shooting something that is precision and you are trying to get MOA groups at hundreds of yards, then maybe something better. All depends of course on what you are looking for.

 

[DizzyJ]

Hi all,
I'm just getting in to hand loading and have been looking at dies.
It seems that there's a big difference In price between a basic set and a precision set.
My question for all of you is: what can a $150 set do that a die from a $40 set can't?
Will I see much more runout with the cheaper set? Will I have that much harder time setting it up? Are they so imprecise that the expensive one is required for consistency?
Or conversely, will the expensive set pay for it's self in convenience or a higher precision cartridge?

Just for some background, I've got a co-ax press on the way and a pile of shiny brass I just pulled out of my wet tumbler, still need dies and consumables.

Thanks for your input.

ASSuming you're talking about rifle ammunition, there are some differences between brands and die sets. Some of the expanders have different shapes, and are made of different materials which MAY lead to more concentric loaded ammunition depending on your process.

Where I absolutely will spend extra money is on the bullet seating dies. The ones that have sleeves to line up the bullet before it enters the case will definitely give less runout than a standard seating die. I especially like the micrometer seating dies that give you a reference for setting seating depth.

There is a lot more to precision reloading regarding die set up, bullet seating stems, etc which will affect the quality of the finished cartridge.

The real question is what do you expect of it, can you measure for it, and is the platform including components capable of producing what you're looking for.

MOA Ammo is easy to produce. Sub-half MOA or less on a consistent basis, not so much.

 

[Legion489]

OK, just to PO everyone, here goes.

Lee dies are the best bang for the buck. Period. That said, there are better dies for some cartridges (7.5x55 Swiss for example, get RCBS/Redding or Forster if you can find them). I have worn out a carbide .45 ACP Lee sizer die. The cases come out egg shaped. Realistically that really doesn't matter unless you are target shooting. At less than 25 yards most people could not tell the difference in accuracy. And to be honest, a lot couldn't at 50 yards either. That is a lot of .45 cases! Love the Lee factory crimp and sizing die(s).

RCBS is good, but more costly. Hornady are good. Lyman can run great or not so great, seems to be highly cartridge dependent.

Best, top of the line dies and worth every penny are Dillon, Redding, Forster (in any order you want to put them).

You will note that Lee is the only one who does NOT offer a lifetime warranty on their reloading equipment, there IS a reason for that.

OK, "cheap vs. expensive" dies. Yes, there is a difference! The cheap dies will (generally, provided there is nothing wrong with the dies, sometimes there is a bad sizing or seating die and the other dies are fine) load good accurate ammo that will get you minute of deer at 300 yards, farther than MOST people should be shooting at anything! I go to ranges and some idiot is bragging about the 100 yard target he just shot. Problem is he was on the 25 yard range, but usually on the 50 yard range. Seen it over and over and over. If they can't tell 50 yards from 100 yards (and most can't) they should not be shooting at anything that bleeds! That is where the 1000 (actually 200) yard shots come from most of the time. "He was a 1000 yards if he was an inch! I held on the top of his back and cut loose and he fell right down shot through the heart! Boy this .30-30 sure does shoot flat!"

The "better", or at least more expensive, dies are generally made to higher standards and closer tolerances. Unless you are shooting at 500 yards at prairie dogs or trying for that 500 yard one bullet diameter wide five shot group, or 800 yards and longer anything, buy the Lee/RCBS/Lyman dies. When you get to knowing what you are doing and the "regular" dies aren't cutting it for you, then buy the best dies you can afford.

Just to throw gas on the fire, here are the three "best" (IMHO) "learning" reloading books:

Lee Modern Reloading 2ed ed. It should be, I rewrote and edited it for Dick Lee and got no credit. Read the book and see Dickie whine about when he sent some stuff to a guy who used it, but Dickie got no credit. Dick is, well a deek. DO NOT believe all the lies about how great all Lee stuff is, some is, and some is worthless trash (Lee LoadMaster for example), or the Lee warranty mentioned 23 times in the book (yes, I counted), it is only 2 years and they do not stand behind it. Oh sure, you might get some small stuff replaced, or completely worthless and obviously defective items (I got a bullet mould that had a 1/4" sheer, where they sheered the aluminum off, right across the top! How that escaped even Lee's famously horrible CQ is beyond me! Yes they did replace it, and sent a nasty letter with it, like it was my fault there was a 1/4" tear across the bullet base!).

Lyman 50th or current. Personally I liked the #48 better than the #49, but they are all good.

DBI Metallic Cartridge Reloading #3. Not sure if that is right with out checking, it was the Last one and impossible to find, for good reason! They told you what was good and what was junk! A lot of companies had hissy fits and the books were stolen out of every library I checked. Might be able to find one used, it took me a couple years to find a second one to add to the library. Worth the wait.

Read these three, and every other reloading book out there! Got to the library and get everything you can (interlibrary loan is great!) and read them! There are no, current, reloading books that are bad out now, unlike the "good old days" when pressures, velocities and whatever was measured by gosh and golly. There IS a reason that the current manuals list much more conservative loads! Some of the old loads were near proof! Different lots of powder, including totally different formulas with the same name (Bulls-eye for example, many of the old SP and IMR powders too) are NOT your granddaddy's powders!

Hope this helps, have fun, be safe, read first, then set up the loading bench!

 

[Sbarton]

OK, just to PO everyone, here goes.

Lee dies are the best bang for the buck. Period. That said, there are better dies for some cartridges (7.5x55 Swiss for example, get RCBS/Redding or Forster if you can find them). I have worn out a carbide .45 ACP Lee sizer die. The cases come out egg shaped. Realistically that really doesn't matter unless you are target shooting. At less than 25 yards most people could not tell the difference in accuracy. And to be honest, a lot couldn't at 50 yards either. That is a lot of .45 cases! Love the Lee factory crimp and sizing die(s).

RCBS is good, but more costly. Hornady are good. Lyman can run great or not so great, seems to be highly cartridge dependent.

Best, top of the line dies and worth every penny are Dillon, Redding, Forster (in any order you want to put them).

You will note that Lee is the only one who does NOT offer a lifetime warranty on their reloading equipment, there IS a reason for that.

OK, "cheap vs. expensive" dies. Yes, there is a difference! The cheap dies will (generally, provided there is nothing wrong with the dies, sometimes there is a bad sizing or seating die and the other dies are fine) load good accurate ammo that will get you minute of deer at 300 yards, farther than MOST people should be shooting at anything! I go to ranges and some idiot is bragging about the 100 yard target he just shot. Problem is he was on the 25 yard range, but usually on the 50 yard range. Seen it over and over and over. If they can't tell 50 yards from 100 yards (and most can't) they should not be shooting at anything that bleeds! That is where the 1000 (actually 200) yard shots come from most of the time. "He was a 1000 yards if he was an inch! I held on the top of his back and cut loose and he fell right down shot through the heart! Boy this .30-30 sure does shoot flat!"

The "better", or at least more expensive, dies are generally made to higher standards and closer tolerances. Unless you are shooting at 500 yards at prairie dogs or trying for that 500 yard one bullet diameter wide five shot group, or 800 yards and longer anything, buy the Lee/RCBS/Lyman dies. When you get to knowing what you are doing and the "regular" dies aren't cutting it for you, then buy the best dies you can afford.

Just to throw gas on the fire, here are the three "best" (IMHO) "learning" reloading books:

Lee Modern Reloading 2ed ed. It should be, I rewrote and edited it for Dick Lee and got no credit. Read the book and see Dickie whine about when he sent some stuff to a guy who used it, but Dickie got no credit. Dick is, well a deek. DO NOT believe all the lies about how great all Lee stuff is, some is, and some is worthless trash (Lee LoadMaster for example), or the Lee warranty mentioned 23 times in the book (yes, I counted), it is only 2 years and they do not stand behind it. Oh sure, you might get some small stuff replaced, or completely worthless and obviously defective items (I got a bullet mould that had a 1/4" sheer, where they sheered the aluminum off, right across the top! How that escaped even Lee's famously horrible CQ is beyond me! Yes they did replace it, and sent a nasty letter with it, like it was my fault there was a 1/4" tear across the bullet base!).

Lyman 50th or current. Personally I liked the #48 better than the #49, but they are all good.

DBI Metallic Cartridge Reloading #3. Not sure if that is right with out checking, it was the Last one and impossible to find, for good reason! They told you what was good and what was junk! A lot of companies had hissy fits and the books were stolen out of every library I checked. Might be able to find one used, it took me a couple years to find a second one to add to the library. Worth the wait.

Read these three, and every other reloading book out there! Got to the library and get everything you can (interlibrary loan is great!) and read them! There are no, current, reloading books that are bad out now, unlike the "good old days" when pressures, velocities and whatever was measured by gosh and golly. There IS a reason that the current manuals list much more conservative loads! Some of the old loads were near proof! Different lots of powder, including totally different formulas with the same name (Bulls-eye for example, many of the old SP and IMR powders too) are NOT your granddaddy's powders!

Hope this helps, have fun, be safe, read first, then set up the loading bench!

Lots of help, thanks!
I appreciate the breakdown between the "cheapo" and expensive dies, it's about what I figured and I'm glad you guys have confirmed it. I think I will take your advice and start out on the lower cost dies and upgrade when/ if they start getting in the way of what I'm trying to accomplish.

Question for you: is the reloading guide you mention written by Edward Matunis?

 

[Legion489]

Yes Ed Matunis could well have written the DBI METALLIC CARTIRDGE RELOADING #3. try looking on E-bay or Amazon for it. Stolen out of every library I checked and hard as chickens with fangs to find. Mine is still in storage after the move.

Read all/every reloading book you can find, then buy your equipment. Go to the local public library and get stuff through the Interlibrary Loan System. Usually free or a small fee to cover S&H, worth every penny!

You asked about dies, but Dillon presses are top notch and they DO stand behind their products! Best thing I ever did was buy a Dillion press! Now several! Lifetime warranty. Lee dies are great, not all Lee stuff is. Some is the best bang for the buck, some is sucker bait. Get the case gauges that Dillion and others put out! Great items!

RCBS, Lyman, Hornady, Redding, Foster, C-H, and others make great presses, AND have a life time warranty they stand behind. Pick what YOU like and be happy. Some pro reloaders have several makes and types of presses for various uses. A single stage of some kind for case forming/resizing large/magnum cases, light weight single stage (the old Lyman small C frame, now sadly discontinued) for depriming/repriming short run stuff, and a progressive (the Dillion 550 is actually a semi-progressive) to load a lot of one thing at a time.

Lee has a two year warranty they do NOT, in my experience, stand behind. They know what they put out. I have owned/used every Lee press except the Cast Classics, they are light duty junk. Lee does NOT stand behind their stuff. Go to the Lee web sites, and these people LIKE Lee presses and they admit they are, well let's say "less than stellar" (including the Cast Classic presses) and light duty junk. My RCBS Rock Chucker is nearly 45 years old now and works fine, show me ANY Lee press that is 10 years, or even five years, old and used everyday, or any Lee LoadMaster that works period! I keep hearing of working Lee LoadMasters, but when I go to see this 9th Wonder of the World, "it is packed up", "kids/wife sick, can't come in", "loaned out", etc., etc. The great thing about the 'net is anyone can claim anything. I can claim the Lee LoadMaster is junk and have never see one that worked. Someone else will claim they have one that does and I can come see it. When I do go, I can't see it because it is a unicorn, or Demonrat prez contended that doesn't want to ban guns, which ever is more believable, and doesn't exist.

 

[nammac]

Been loading on this piece of junk, aluminum Lee press since about 1987, I paid a whopping 9.95 for it directly from Lee during a promotion they were running. This press has literally loaded tens of thousands of rounds of handgun ammo and has done several thousand rounds of rifle ammo too.

I've spent countless hours behind the handle of this press building ammo to supply my personal needs, it's never failed me and still produces great ammo...

 

[ageingstudent]

Lee is best.

Always poking the bear lol...

 

[Sbarton]

Been loading on this piece of junk, aluminum Lee press since about 1987, I paid a whopping 9.95 for it directly from Lee during a promotion they were running. This press has literally loaded tens of thousands of rounds of handgun ammo and has done several thousand rounds of rifle ammo too.

I've spent countless hours behind the handle of this press building ammo to supply my personal needs, it's never failed me and still produces great ammo...

View attachment 622127

And it looks like you take really good care of it too.
You know what they say: be careful of the man with only one press, he knows how to use it!

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Always poking the bear lol...

Whatcha you doing in Winnemucca my brother? I was just there last month..

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Been loading on this piece of junk, aluminum Lee press since about 1987, I paid a whopping 9.95 for it directly from Lee during a promotion they were running. This press has literally loaded tens of thousands of rounds of handgun ammo and has done several thousand rounds of rifle ammo too.

I've spent countless hours behind the handle of this press building ammo to supply my personal needs, it's never failed me and still produces great ammo...

View attachment 622127

Hey, if it works for you. Good enough... Looks good for having so many miles on it. My Rockchucker has seen hundreds of thousands of rounds as well....

 

[ageingstudent]

Whatcha you doing in Winnemucca my brother? I was just there last month..

Well actually in Elko now I gotta change that...got tired of the rain and riots, sold everything that didn't matter, and went to see an old friend who lives in Winnemucca. Then got a job near Elko so here I be.

 

[bsa1917hunter]

Well actually in Elko now I gotta change that...got tired of the rain and riots, sold everything that didn't matter, and went to see an old friend who lives in Winnemucca. Then got a job near Elko so here I be.

I ate sushi in Elko a few weeks ago....

 

[ageingstudent]

I ate sushi in Elko a few weeks ago....

I hope you wore protection lol. Just sayin.

 

[Legion489]

The great thing about the 'net is anyone can claim anything.

Been loading on this piece of junk, aluminum Lee press since about 1987, I paid a whopping 9.95 for it directly from Lee during a promotion they were running. This press has literally loaded tens of thousands of rounds of handgun ammo and has done several thousand rounds of rifle ammo too.

I rest my case. At least he is honest about the press. If I had a flaw, being wrong would not be it.

 

[nammac]

True. Find an equal amount of ignorance too!

 

[gmerkt]

Go cheep buying used expensive dies

This is certainly a possibility but if you can, inspect the sizing die closely. Sometimes used sets contain scratched sizing dies.

Where I absolutely will spend extra money is on the bullet seating dies. The ones that have sleeves to line up the bullet before it enters the case will definitely give less runout than a standard seating die.

I agree. One example is Hornady and they aren't all that expensive.

they admit they are, well let's say "less than stellar" (including the Cast Classic presses)

One of my presses that I use a lot is a Lee Classic Cast, bought it when they first came out but have forgotten how long ago that was. Still works fine, I like the tall opening for the "O" which allows plenty of space for loading .30-06. My oldest single stage press is the RCBS Rock Chucker, used it for at least 15 years, it's still good but the ram loosened up a little. Also have a Forster concentric and in recent times a Dillon 550 progressive. You might say my reloading equipment is "rainbow."

Legion489 is right about Lee stuff, some is good, some is less than good. I've got quite a few sets of Lee dies. Once in a while, I've had to send a Lee die back to the factory to have some adjustment or other done to it which they've done. I've even modified a couple myself out of necessity because I wanted the part to do something that Lee didn't. I have no gripe against Lee lock rings, I've never replaced any with other brands. They seem to hold well once set. I've had more trouble with older RCBS aluminum lock rings allowing the die to gradually back out than any other kind.

One of the things I think Lee does well is their hand priming tools. The old design with the round tray was best; the newer ones with the square trays not nearly as much. I've got a couple of the new ones, have been back and forth with Lee over these but they are working well now. The somewhat clunky RCBS hand priming tool doesn't see much use.

I've got many sets of Lee dies, but RCBS is probably more numerous. I've also got Hornady which I like, a few Lyman which I don't favor. Redding dies are very nice but quirky to me. Every one I've gotten has some little nuance. I've got a few Dillon sets for that machine but my tool heads typically contain a mixture of brands. Some pointed out earlier that the original question was about premium versus standard but in my mind, quality kinda follows brand selection to some extent.

Lots of good stuff here to think about.

 

[kisfish]

I am by no means a expert when it comes to reloading but have been doing it a few years now. You get what you pay for. I used to buy the standard cheap rcbs dies. I only buy rcbs comp or gold medal dies now. The biggest advantage is when adjusting by a thousandths or two. It saves so much time in set up .

 

[IceAxRiflRvlvr]

I mix and match different die manufacturers in some calibers, Lee for some calibers, RCBS, etc. for others.

Note that when loading hard cast for .44 mag that if you oversize the cast lead bullet say to .431 for a better bore fit, the Lee Carbide Crimp Die will resize back down to .429 or .430. Bought an extra die and removed the carbide ring to prevent that on rounds made for certain revolvers.

 

[Sbarton]

So I got hornady dies for .223, and Lee dies for 6.5 grendel.
The hornady dies sure seem better made!
I haven't used the Lee dies yet, so I can't comment on how they work, but I loaded up a few .223s tonight and I have no complaints so far with hornady.

 

[Steel Head]

For long distance shooting I found good dies very important.
Good doesn't mean silly expensive though.
One of my favorite dies is the lee collet.
It with a Redding body die and Forster micrometer bullet seater makes very consistent loads and is my standard for setup.