"Cheap" versus High End ARs

[nehalemguy]

 

[Member 3687]

Fit and finish has been thrown around in the comments but what does it gain you.

Fit can gain you accuracy and reliability so I agree parts that fit well will gain you something of value as long as you stay within the spec of the firearm for its intended usage.

A very tight gun will gain you accuracy but sometimes you lose reliability as grit and grime will jam it up as there is no room to clear it. Loose but in tolerance will lose accuracy but gain reliability when running in filthy extremes.

Example: a top end Les Baer 1911 will recommend shooting at least 500 rounds before carry to break it in and I have seen them take more to fully break in but they are accurate. Now I have seen the same gun jam up in a three gun match more than once after several hundred rounds without cleaning due to the tight specs.

Now take a good AK, not some of the stuff they are building now and yes accuracy suffers but I have seen them run full of mud and sand when they should not and ARs and M16 where failing.

So it comes down to what you are using it for, shooting 5 rounds in the same hole or SHTF Zombie apocalypse.

The term finish reminds me of when I worked at the as a Harley Tech we added all the bells and bling to make the bikes look good.

But the saying in the shop was all that chrome will not get you home but you look dam good setting on the side of the road.

So what is your idea of finish matching color, perfect camouflage or perfectly smooth edges and a tacticool look and shape?

I ran AKs for a long time and have several Arsenal SGl20 and 21s and yes they are crude, accuracy around 1.75 to 2 in at 100 yards, have sharp edges and hot to run and require gloves but they work and during several carbine classes I have taken the AKs were the only guns that kept running at the end of three days without being cleaned and most of the AR guys using high end ARs cleaned their guns each night yet still had issues.

This is not a knock on AR/M16s but there was a reason we kept the dust cover closed and balloons over the end of the barrel when I was in the military.

So back to fit and finish yes when you build or buy the fit of the gun in my opinion is the more important of the two. Does the stock rattle around, the upper lower match with just a little play and is the front sight canted, does the bolt drag on closing and is the gas tube in alignment with the carrier.

Finish I can care less if the upper/lower color matches and many times I have bought blemished BCM uppers because they are cheaper and I am going to ding it anyway because I shoot them. I also have spray painted them with camo paint to break up the pattern so looks are not important to me.

Someone said it is the difference between a Honda and a Ferrari well I live in North Idaho and still have snow in the shaded areas and I spent 3 hours today plowing my .8 mile dirt road to get the pot hole to feel more like a roller coaster than a off road park. I know that a Honda will make it down my road with 4 inches of snow but I can almost guarantee that most Ferrari's do not stand a chance.

So decide what ya going to use it for and build and buy accordingly.

If you want Ferrari AR then get a DD, BCM or Colt they are good guns and I have no problem with that but if you want just a basic home defense AR then there is nothing wrong with A Ruger 5.56 or the Smith M&P 2. I have never played with the Springfield Saint much so have no opinion on it.

With PSA you need to stick with the middle of the road ones at least. Ones with the 4150 v Melonite barrels, premium BCG that's chromed lined and tested and a 7075 T6 upper. The freedom guns are cheaper and for a reason so you need to read the spec of the components and do not go real cheap. You can still save money and get good parts.

 

[The Resister]

Hopefully, for your money you're getting durability and reliability in what everyone likes to call "austere conditions". Hopefully you're paying for excellent QC along with the quality. Some people buy $40 Anderson lowers and uppers and shoot maybe 1k through them in their entire ownership, as range toys and that's totally sufficient for that use. Other people, like me, put 1k through them per month at least and don't own "toys". As a lefty, the high end's full ambi stuff is very appealing. Although its proprietary, and nothing a Forward Controls mag release and a Radian safety can't fix for much cheaper than a LMT Mars lower or one of Radian's. They're extremely well built, ill give them that. Expensive doesn't always mean quality, and there's a finite number of features you can physically put on a lower/upper. Many people think "There's not enough bells and whistles in the world to make that lower worth $350". You're paying for material quality, R&D and a lot of other things that need to be developed to bring that product to market. Conversely, you could be SMOS and make NOVESKE's OEM parts while they slap their name on it. Many people like myself don't own or trust their life to something that hasn't been thoroughly vetted personally, is synonymous with "budget" or "hobby grade" or considered "range toy".

The article I have from Shotgun News put the Anderson stripped lower in the category of a Aero Precision (tier two lowers.) They checked the hardness of the metal, the tolerances, etc. and found the Anderson lower to be just as good as any tier two category. If you look at an Anderson LPK against any tier two LPK you can visually see a difference. Anderson internals look like junk.

 

[The Resister]

This question...in some format or variation...has been asked a million times on just about every gun forum out there...

Example: What does a Wilson Combat 1911 do for me that a Springfield Arms won't? Or what makes the Wilson worth so much more? Etc.

To which I always reply...A Porsche and a Volkswagen will both get you down the road. A Craftsman wrench and a Snap On wrench will both turn the nut/bolt. Only YOU can decide if the extra money is worth it to you. Value is very subjective.

You mentioned Daniel Defense so we'll use that as an example. With DD you get

• A known and generally high and consistent level of quality. I mean this within reason. Everyone produces a dog once in awhile. And this isn't to say that other makers don't have the same level of quality...or maybe even better.
• A warranty from a generally well regarded company who has a good reputation for standing by their products
• Generally decent level of customer service if there is a problem
• One stop shop if there is a problem. In a FrankenGun you may have trouble getting service. Or the company saying that the problem isn't with their part it's with another part you used
• Generally a higher level of resale than you would get from a FrankenGun. Selling a FrankenGun can be hard because not everyone may like the combination of parts you chose and a whole lot of people are NOT willing to take the chance that you didn't "Bubba" something during the build process. But Franken guns usually sell for a whole lot less than the total cost of their parts. If you get fifty cents on the dollar you're doing well IMO. And that's purely anecdotal based on my experience. If you disagree with me, that's fine.
• I'm stating the obvious here but you get a quality weapon that is ready to go right out of the box. No assembly required. Building obviously takes time and money...and some tools which a lot of people overlook in their initial cost assessment. Don't overlook the cost of shipping either.

Again, only YOU can decide if this is worth it to you and if the quality warrants the price. YMMV.

For me, it comes down to this:

At some point, firearms will be outlawed. Period. We don't have the will nor the interest in being vigilant (and by that I mean proactive) on the issue. We are reactionary. So, I won't mind building my own rifle. If they are outlawed and society collapses or has an internal war, you are the gunsmith. In this thread, I'm looking for that specific answer. What do you get for the extra money?

With PSA, you can buy their cheapest junk OR you can buy their CHF barreled upper for an additional $100 or so and the barrel is marked FN. If you buy their stripped upper and put in a quality BCG, charging handle, and sights (and I change out the flash hider), then I'm failing to see the advantages of a $1000 upper DD or BCM. I'm wanting to find out what I get for the price difference. Customer service from the companies? A cool finish?

We say it depends upon what you're buying the weapon for. I only know three reasons: competition / accuracy, a rifle to use for survival / SHTF/ self defense, or one for plinking. If you want a rifle with sniper capabilities for competition, designated marksman, or accuracy, maybe a high end rifle is justified - without argument. If I'm just plinking, I would buy a S&W 22 AR and pretend. If I buy for the reason most people do: survival / SHTF / self defense, then reliability becomes paramount. When my life is what's at stake, I don't care about whether the upper and lower are off a few shades in color or if it's going to have a high resale value. And, it's a battle rifle. It don't have to be sub moa at 100 yards. If you're doing 2" groups with a rifle after the break in period, you'll do fine in a SHTF, survival or self defense situation.

My takeaway from most of the shooters here is that a quality build will do just as good as the $2000 builds. If you're using quality parts, assembled to spec (headspaced, torqued with a torque wrench to spec, and properly staked when appropriate, etc.) is there an advantage a factory weapon would have over a quality build? Youtube has a lot of videos showing that a melonite PSA barrel shows significant throat erosion after 500 rounds in rapid fire while a POF is like new after the same treatment. The jury is still out with the FN chrome lined versus the POF. And I think those things are what people really want to know about. Even factory rifles can be tricky to say they're all junk. A guy at the last gun show I went to had Bushmasters for $399 plus tax. They were mostly junk. OTOH, I traded two CZ 52 pistols once to a guy for a Bushmaster NIB that he inherited when his brother died. A call to Bushmaster revealed that it had a chrome bore and chamber.

I really appreciate the input. If I did not value my life, I'd just pay the money and take the factory rifle home because it looks cool, the company has good customer service and I can resale without losing much if anything. Like you said, to each his own. But reviews tell us how people rate factory rifles. What we really want to know is if we had to use our weapon against someone similarly armed, will our rifle perform to the point that training and practice will become the deciding factors. The difference between my average quality build and a top tier rifle is the cost of a case of ammo. That case of ammo is a lot of practice.

Again, I want to thank you and everybody who is giving some input. I'm learning a lot from this thread. Sorry for the long winded reply however.

 

[Andy54Hawken]

Warning ....I am not that into the AR15 rifle...so take what I say with a large dose of salt.

In my experience of shooting when it really matters and being shot at....
I have seen men wounded and or killed by rifles that would be considered cheap , low end , obsolete , sub-par etc...by many people.
Often the men wounded or killed were highly trained and very professional...and were shot by those who many might consider to be untrained or at the least not on the same level as the US soldiers I am referring to.

My point here is :
Don't get all hung up on the firearm and whether or not it is high end or low end...etc...
Buy what you can afford , and what will work for your purposes....
Learn to use it well....and have the willingness to use it , when needed.

If the shot is well placed a man will be dead , no matter if he was shot with a rifle that cost $400 or $4000 dollars.
Now to sure ...some rifles are made of higher quality parts and will be more durable , and or less prone to malfunction , breakage , etc...
Just saying here...a determined man armed with any rifle is a dangerous opponent.
Andy

 

[HA556]

My point here is :
Don't get all hung up on the firearm and whether or not it is high end or low end...etc...
Buy what you can afford , and what will work for your purposes....
Learn to use it well....and have the willingness to use it , when needed.

Every bit of this!

 

[Siglvr]

Andy nailed it. Smith and Wesson makes a full range of ar-15's. Their cheapest, the Sport 2, is one of the most inexpensive ARs out there, about $500 before the latest out of control buying. Their most expensive, the T & S and competition, just under $1600. There is a reason that the price is different. Both are reliable and accurate. The difference is there as the $1600 version is better than the $500 one, but it is not worth over $1000 to most people. Yet they still sell many of the high end versions as that difference has value for some. That value of that difference between a costly vs inexpensive rifle is strictly in the eye of the beholder. My value will necessarily be different than yours. Having one, even the cheapest, is so much better than having none that it's not comparable.

 

[Warheathen1]

We say it depends upon what you're buying the weapon for. I only know three reasons: competition / accuracy, a rifle to use for survival / SHTF/ self defense, or one for plinking. If you want a rifle with sniper capabilities for competition, designated marksman, or accuracy, maybe a high end rifle is justified - without argument. If I'm just plinking, I would buy a S&W 22 AR and pretend. If I buy for the reason most people do: survival / SHTF / self defense, then reliability becomes paramount. When my life is what's at stake, I don't care about whether the upper and lower are off a few shades in color or if it's going to have a high resale value. And, it's a battle rifle. It don't have to be sub moa at 100 yards. If you're doing 2" groups with a rifle after the break in period, you'll do fine in a SHTF, survival or self defense situation.

My takeaway from most of the shooters here is that a quality build will do just as good as the $2000 builds. If you're using quality parts, assembled to spec (headspaced, torqued with a torque wrench to spec, and properly staked when appropriate, etc.) is there an advantage a factory weapon would have over a quality build? Youtube has a lot of videos showing that a melonite PSA barrel shows significant throat erosion after 500 rounds in rapid fire while a POF is like new after the same treatment. The jury is still out with the FN chrome lined versus the POF. And I think those things are what people really want to know about. Even factory rifles can be tricky to say they're all junk. A guy at the last gun show I went to had Bushmasters for $399 plus tax. They were mostly junk. OTOH, I traded two CZ 52 pistols once to a guy for a Bushmaster NIB that he inherited when his brother died. A call to Bushmaster revealed that it had a chrome bore and chamber.

I really appreciate the input. If I did not value my life, I'd just pay the money and take the factory rifle home because it looks cool, the company has good customer service and I can resale without losing much if anything. Like you said, to each his own. But reviews tell us how people rate factory rifles. What we really want to know is if we had to use our weapon against someone similarly armed, will our rifle perform to the point that training and practice will become the deciding factors. The difference between my average quality build and a top tier rifle is the cost of a case of ammo. That case of ammo is a lot of practice.

Quality will always win over cost efficiency

 

[Flopsweat]

I gotta disagree with a bunch of people on this. I don't normally weigh in on these types of questions because generally it's all preference, but there's a metric crap ton of misinformation here. First of all, any Frankenstein rifle, regardless of quality, has multiple points of failure in the LONG run. I.e. the wear on the parts will be different over the course of the rifles life. Why? Because it's all from different manufacturers and made of different quality parts. However, I'm not saying an all stock rifle will outlast every single frankenstein. My answer to the question or thread is BOTH. Lower quality for general training/proficiency, and high end for Accuracy/SHTF. Buy Once, Cry once isn't just a meme or a fad, it's a legit principle. And I would trust any factory BCM or DD over anything that I, myself put together out of parts regardless of quality, because I'm not an expert. They are.

Let's paint an example, shall we? Extremely relevant in the current times if this garbage gets worse and people get more desperate/economy collapses.

In a SHTF scenario, most people, including people on this forum, aren't ready. They may THINK they are, but in reality they aren't. 30-60 minutes. If SHTF, it should take you no longer than 30-60 mins to be home, family and gear loaded in the rig, and on your way out of city limits. The people hoarding 10,000 rounds with the strategy of "bunkering down" within city limits aren't going to last long. They may last longer than A LOT of people, but ultimately that strategy is a lose/lose. If you're in city limits, the ONLY option is to get as far away from the city as possible. The REALITY is, that you can't carry the tens of thousands of rounds one might have stockpiled, and mobility is essential in survival situations. So let's look at logistics.

S is HTF...you get home (preferably the fam is grabbing essentials and having it ready by the time you get home), essentials being: stored food, blankets/sleeping bags, survival kits and medbags, water, bottle of lube/oil in the gun bag, gear/ammo/weaponry. You aren't gonna be throwing your whole safe in the truck. You'll probably have time and space to grab a couple sidearms, couple rifles, ammo. If you have a safe full of guns, which ones are you gonna grab? I guaran-f'ingTee I'm not gonna grab my Anderson or PSA, or my fancy STI or Less Bauer or my Gucci Glock unless that's all you have. No, I'm grabbing my 2 standard Glocks because they take the same mags, and I'm grabbing the factory BCMs or DDs, why? Because both guns have an impeccable wartime track record. They don't f-ing quit and they can go a looong time without cleaning in case I run out of oil or for whatever reason I didn't have any. (MAC YT channel currently has 8500 rounds through a BCM Recce without a single failure with zero lube/maintenance). I don't need my guns to be pinpoint accurate. I need them to be pretty accurate, and dependable and durable in a time of war. That's it. I know a lot of operators/contractors and US Marshals. Every single one of them runs BCM, or DD and only two run Colt just because it's what they are used to, when they get deployed. That's evidence enough for me.

I know that I can comfortably carry 2 sidearms, a rifle, and about 450-500 rounds of mixed ammo between the 2 calibers on my person. (A standard combat loadout is 3-5 spare mags of sidearm and 6-8 mags of AR. The other ammo would be stored in the rig.

So yeah, in summary, all parts/builds have their place in the industry as well as in the given situations they are needed. But in the most important situation, survival, it isn't even a second thought for me, and quality will always win over cost efficiency.

Just my .02

LOL, I won't last 6 months without meds. Rant all you want but most of us on this very forum either cannot or will not do all that. I can live my life in some sort of enjoyable fashion or spend just about all of my spare time in a futile attempt to prepare to survive a low-odds scenario the nature of which I have no chance of predicting. Guess which one I chose? Sorry to dis your hobby but I don't see it paying off.

* Rant not lest yea be ranted upon.

 

[MannyGlocks]

I hope when you 'bug out' you have a large helicopter to get outta Dodge...cuz roads aint gonna cut it...packed to the max they'll be...

 

[wired]

Id still like to know what this SHTF scenario is where I will be running out to the country to live off the land with all the other people doing the same thing. Godzilla?

 

[hatchj]

What about a "frankenrifle" made with quality parts? realistically, if your barrel extension is quality, and you buy an inspec bcg....what other area are you really all that worried about. I highly doubt they gonna mic the bcg and barrel from the factory to get a "perfect" fit on bcm/dd/colt/etc that are supposedly "better"

 

[Flopsweat]

What about a "frankenrifle" made with quality parts? realistically, if your barrel extension is quality, and you buy an inspec bcg....what other area are you really all that worried about. I highly doubt they gonna mic the bcg and barrel from the factory to get a "perfect" fit on bcm/dd/colt/etc that are supposedly "better"

Well, you see, once you get up around 50,000 rounds the factory rifle will really start to outpace the home assembled one.

 

[rds801]

If you don't want to upgrade every trigger you have, don't ever shoot a nice trigger. I'm sold and I can't stand "Mil Spec" triggers anymore.

100% hahaha

For my first rifle, which also turned out to be my duty rifle, I bought a PSA lower and Spikes complete upper. It seemed people were split on the quality of Spikes. Ended up putting a Spikes lower on it so I could have a "matching" rifle. Down the road I changed the trigger (Geissele ssa), BCG (BCM), and charging handle (BCM)

After putting in the Geissele trigger, I found out what the fuss was all about. I only own 3 AR's and 2 have Geissele SSA's and the other has an ALG QMS.

 

[Flopsweat]

100% hahaha

For my first rifle, which also turned out to be my duty rifle, I bought a PSA lower and Spikes complete upper. It seemed people were split on the quality of Spikes. Ended up putting a Spikes lower on it so I could have a "matching" rifle. Down the road I changed the trigger (Geissele ssa), BCG (BCM), and charging hangle (BCM)

After putting in the Geissele trigger, I found out what the fuss was all about. I only own 3 AR's and 2 have Geissele SSA's and the other has an ALG QMS.

A friend of mine a week after trying one of my ARs with a Geissele trigger in it: "Damn you Flops, I just spent $600 on triggers today!"

EDIT: Try the SSA-E for a bench gun. Just like the SSA but the second stage is lighter than the SSA. Some folks find it a little light for an everyday rifle. Same buttery smooth pull and clean break.

 

[saxon]

"Cheap" versus High End ARs
what will you be shooting and at what yardage will it be?
under 300 yards? i have shot piece of crap and hit dead center @ 300
i have shot high end very expensive and still hit dead center @300
and in Adrenalin and environment etc etc and you will know why the Germans went from the MG34 to the MG42
MG34 machined, tight tolerance, and got stopped up because of environment and was not AS reliable
MG42 lose stamped parts looser tolerance and a flat out buzz saw.

 

[titsonritz]

Anderson internals look like junk.

That's because they have been rejected by Colt, BCM, etc for failing their QC process, a process lower tier AR makers very much lack.

 

[Mygrainman]

If you've ever spent 4 times the money on a gucci/name brand part just because it's what Flannel Daddy uses...
Go ahead and hit that like button

 

[powermad]

I think I spent $560 on my AR15 to start with a couple of years ago.
PSA upper kit, Anderson lower and a 5 pack of mags.

It's ran well, has had no problems and I only changed a few things.
Radian BCG and charging handle and went with a Vltor A5 EMOD stock kit with an H2 buffer.
The kit came with the PSA EPT trigger group and I still use it as it seems pretty good to me.
A better barrel and such would probably be more accurate but I would have to be a heck of a lot better shot to notice.
It bangs a 9" round plate well enough and I can pick off clays with it at 100 yds so I really can't complain..

 

[powermad]

Flannel Daddy could use a Crayon to kill someone and go back to coloring in his My Lil Pony coloring book and make it look cool.