"Cheap" versus High End ARs

[titsonritz]

I didnt read any replies. Skimmed the OP, just gonna say 2nd whatever @titsonritz said and leave it at that.

Everything I build for myself is duty grade and I try to steer people in that direction when asked to help them build. I don't need the super fancy stuff like KAC, LMT, Radian especially considering many have proprietary components. It doesn't matter to if some of those component are superior, which they are, if they are incompatible with my other weapons I don't want deal to with it.

I am very comfortable sticking with Colt, BCM, SIONICS, SOLGW and Centurion Arms for my needs and see no reason what so ever to go below that benchmark. I've seen too many issues with stuff like Anderson to even go there.

Regarding LPK, when someone ignores me and brings over some cheap POS they "got cheap on sale" I shake my head and flick their bolt release roll pin in the garbage and use my own (I have hundreds of them on hand). I've had too many split out and I'll never again attempt to use them.

For ambi-controls, Battle Arms, Forward Control and Radian have everything I'll ever need.

 

[Geardo]

Everything I build for myself is duty grade and I try to steer people in that direction when asked to help them build. I don't need the super fancy stuff like KAC, LMT, Radian especially considering many have proprietary components. It doesn't matter to if some of those component are superior, which they are, if they are incompatible with my other weapons I don't want deal to with it.

I am very comfortable sticking with Colt, BCM, SIONICS, SOLGW and Centurion Arms for my needs and see no reason what so ever to go below that benchmark. I've seen too many issues with stuff like Anderson to even go there.

Regarding LPK, when someone ignores me and brings over some cheap POS they "got cheap on sale" I shake my head and flick their bolt release roll pin in the garbage and use my own (I have hundreds of them on hand). I've had too many split out and I'll never again attempt to use them.

For ambi-controls, Battle Arms, Forward Control and Radian have everything I'll ever need.

I agree 99% I regret the money wasted on cheap guns.

I would go down to Aero/BA when price is a critical factor.

 

[Diamondback]

The only reason I have ONE Anderson is because it's what Joe came up with as a site fundraiser, and as someone who was vocal prodding him to do 'em I felt obligated to put my money where my mouth was.

On the other end of the scale, we own an Umbrella Corp... this is the notorious "Girlfriend's Gun."

 

[titsonritz]

I agree 99% I regret the money wasted on cheap guns.

I would go down to Aero/BA when price is a critical factor.

Yeah if coin is a big factor I'd steer someone to Aero, I just did the day in fact. BA Hanson barrels are GTG. I just typical stick with the five I mentioned but would definitely go with Aero/BA over stuff like Anderson, PSA, DPMS, Shrubcrapper, etc.

 

[Diamondback]

Tits, if I can ever get the girlfriend down that way when she's on the Left Coast we'll have to bring her BCM-Umbrella C8 and my Colt-Aero M4 for you to check out as a grad from the Iraqgunz School of Better Gunsmithing.

Aero's my go-to for stripped lowers mainly because I'm usually on a tight budget and they're Home Team; my next upper will be either Midwest ASDW or a Centurion "ersatz GL/SSC" though.

 

[hatchj]

From what I've seen/used. Other than occasional QC issues that I haven't personally seen...I'd have a hard time not putting Aero parts up there with/near bcm. I absolutely wouldn't put colt above them.

I guess I'm just confused what makes at least some Aero products a tier below?

 

[L84Cabo]

I really am ignorant. I've never had 2 grand to drop on any firearm all at once. Ended up with that in a couple over the course of a year and a half. But, my favorite build has yet to malfunction except once on bad ammo. Rapid fire, don't clean it, and it still holds just over 1 inch groups at 50 yards with iron sights. What would I get in difference to plunk down the big bucks?

This question...in some format or variation...has been asked a million times on just about every gun forum out there...

Example: What does a Wilson Combat 1911 do for me that a Springfield Arms won't? Or what makes the Wilson worth so much more? Etc.

To which I always reply...A Porsche and a Volkswagen will both get you down the road. A Craftsman wrench and a Snap On wrench will both turn the nut/bolt. Only YOU can decide if the extra money is worth it to you. Value is very subjective.

You mentioned Daniel Defense so we'll use that as an example. With DD you get

• A known and generally high and consistent level of quality. I mean this within reason. Everyone produces a dog once in awhile. And this isn't to say that other makers don't have the same level of quality...or maybe even better.
• A warranty from a generally well regarded company who has a good reputation for standing by their products
• Generally decent level of customer service if there is a problem
• One stop shop if there is a problem. In a FrankenGun you may have trouble getting service. Or the company saying that the problem isn't with their part it's with another part you used
• Generally a higher level of resale than you would get from a FrankenGun. Selling a FrankenGun can be hard because not everyone may like the combination of parts you chose and a whole lot of people are NOT willing to take the chance that you didn't "Bubba" something during the build process. But Franken guns usually sell for a whole lot less than the total cost of their parts. If you get fifty cents on the dollar you're doing well IMO. And that's purely anecdotal based on my experience. If you disagree with me, that's fine.
• I'm stating the obvious here but you get a quality weapon that is ready to go right out of the box. No assembly required. Building obviously takes time and money...and some tools which a lot of people overlook in their initial cost assessment. Don't overlook the cost of shipping either.

Again, only YOU can decide if this is worth it to you and if the quality warrants the price. YMMV.

 

[Member 3687]

Are there differences in guns and manufactures? The answer is yes as with all things made and as many have said it is a choice you have to make depending on the job you want it to do.

I like ARs and have been building them as a hobby since the 80s before most folks knew what they even where and when Olympic arms, Bushmaster and Colt where the only parts out there for the most part and if you wanted a flat top Olympic arms would cut off the carry handle and mount a weaver rail to it.

Now there are hundreds of companies making parts and guns and over time the quality has come up for even the cheaper ones out there compared to back then. Your basic Ruger 5.56 and M&P 2 are better quality than the M16 I carried back then other than the lack of chrome lined barrel.

Even the military has had to improve the guns over the years as quality and issues kept coming up and now they run mostly FNH guns over Colt because of price and quality.

So now what determines a quality gun, is it a thousand rounds of no failures without cleaning or 5000 rounds of no failures without cleaning I have a PSA upper on a Anderson lowers that have done both and is still running today without issue. Are they pretty no but I got it to shoot not be a trailer queen and look pretty in a safe.

Please do not get me wrong I have quit a few BCM uppers that I got before they made complete guns all on Anderson lowers as well as a couple of Colts. I have owned Smith & Wesson, Bushmaster, Olympic arms, PSA and a number of Franken guns over the years and have to agree there are some things you need to look for when looking.

I agree with others if you build then Barrels, BCGs and lower part kits make a big difference. Cheap springs break and many lower quality lower kits use MIM parts that are not heat treated correctly and come apart when abused.

I do use the BCM lower parts kits for the most part now as I found them to meet my needs, there may be others out there but I like the Mod 3 grip as well so it meets my needs and have never had issues of fit or breakage.

Barrels: with the Melonite process of most barrels now days it's hard to justify the extra for Chrome lined one. Round count is the same unless you run full auto then the chrome will make a difference and since I do not live in a jungle area like Viet Nam I have never had issues with sticking cases because of the humidity and heat. I think the Melonite coating has fixed some of that as well.

I run mainly Faxon, BCM or FNH chrome lined from PSA. I do have uppers from PSA with the Melonite 4150 v barrels and I like them but there freedom barrels are hit and miss in my opinion and I have had issues with them and I am just not a stainless barrel fan as I have never found one that worked the way I wanted.

BCG: I have Colt, BCM and PSA premium and have had no issues with any of them. I have over 10000 rounds on a BCM and a PSA upper and the wear is about the same and all I replaced on both was gas rings at 5000 rounds and that is it (just normal maintenance). I will admit the outside finish of the BCM did look better than the PSA when I got it but the PSA has never failed. There are different BCGs that PSA offer so if you use one of their branded ones make sure it is chrome lined and I prefer pressure tested and MPI.

As far as lowers most of them are usable as long as they are 7075 T6 and not 6061 T6. I have built over 200 guns with Anderson lowers and I currently have 30 myself. I have never had any issues and the serial numbers cover a wide range and manufacturing lots. Yes there were some complaints that the grip mounting hole was not threaded all the way.

What I found was cheap lower parts kit did not have spec grip screws in them and they were too long and that was the problem more than the lower. There have been some issues with polymer mags not releasing and I found again that cheap parts kit had trigger guards that the front pin surround was larger than spec (again made from 6061 and not 7075) and would drag on the mag, not the receivers fault but they would work with metal mags no problem.

So until you can show me that they crack or break under usage, they are a spec part that I will keep using and use the extra money I saved for ammo when I can find it or buy more lowers.

I have nothing against DD, Colt or BCM but until you can show me why they are worth what they ask besides their name I have a hard time spending the money and you can ask my wife if it is worth it I will spend the money.

I have built ARs that I have around 300 into all the way up to 1200 and I found if you build it correctly they will be very reliable and I would trust my life with it.

I am not an expert I just experiment with and abuse for my own knowledge and ARs are my tinker toys. Good parts do not have to be expensive as many manufactures of good cheap parts also manufacture parts for good expensive companies.

In a bad time even a cheap AR that you train with is better than an expensive one you're afraid to shoot because of the cost.

In bad times you just do what any third world country does, you use what you have to acquire what you need… It's called upgrade

 

[MannyGlocks]

DSA

Great post!

 

[RaceFan]

I tend to look at this issue like cars. They all function identically. The keys are fit/finish, accessories, and how hard you will run it. The last being the deciding factor.

The less expensive AR lowers, parts, etc. are like the typical middle class vehicle. They work fine and will do the job well.

The medium range ARs are the luxury automobiles. More refinements. The smoother engine = LPK with greater/better QC, upgraded triggers, ambi mag release and safety. Chrome/alloy wheels = upgraded BCGs (NiB, TiN, lower weight, etc.) Leather seats and other creature comforts = milled, light-weight hand guards; cerakote; etc.

The "high end" ARs are the exotic supercars. You want to run 9,000 rpms for extended periods like a Ferrari. Go right ahead in your Knights. Failure rates will be low, almost zero. Try 9,000 rpms in a Ford, Honda, Toyota. Not gonna happen outside of a short burst. You might be able to do it in a BMW or Mercedes for a while, but their engine will fail way before an exotic will.

 

[Koda]

A Honda will outlive a Ferrari every car.

 

[Tarawa86]

I never miss. And I'm blind.

Daredevil, is that you?

 

[Member 53328]

A Honda will outlive a Ferrari every car.

Swap out the internals of a Honda and you have a good chance of beating the Ferrari as well.

 

[P7M13]

White Oak Arms

I know them as White Oak Armament - damn fine barrels too!

Many lower end optics are made in China, you know, those bubblegums that put lead paint on our children's toys, poisons in our dog's food, rip off our tech, those guys. Commies.

You forgot, narcotics that kill too!

A Honda will outlive a Ferrari every car.

Stock, off the lot, unless it's the NSX, a Honda will never give you a woodie.

 

[titsonritz]

You forgot, narcotics that kill too!

My list is without question not all inclusive, but my point is they are not our friends and whether people admit or not they ARE our enemy. Why anyone would knowingly supporting an enemy is beyond my comprehension. I could care less if they produce the best product out there at a 1/3 of the price, I'm not interested.

 

[titsonritz]

Stock, off the lot, unless it's the NSX, a Honda will never give you a woodie.

The NSX is badass.

 

[Member 53328]

The NSX is badass.

The old ones yes. The new ones fell flat just like the new Supras.

 

[titsonritz]

The old ones yes. The new ones fell flat just like the new Supras.

That's not surprising either.

 

[wired]

Ive owned dozens if not hundreds of AR's and M16's over the past 30 years plus whatever they issued me in the military. I own somewhere around 15 now. I lose track. The only AR's I have ever owned that have given me trouble were from Olympic Arms . Otherwise they have mostly been 100% functional. Not talking blowback niche stuff like 9mm or 45 ACP which I am a fan of despite their shortcomings. . Top dollar hasnt run much better than bottom dollar as far as function goes . I will say that most people who insist that top dollar is the only way to go are full of it ."It" be a euphemism for poo poo.

 

[CamoDeafie]

@RaceFan ; I think a better analogy would be with say, a Ford Mustang. There's the 4 cyl/6 cyl base and ecoboost models (the cheap ARs), then the various v8 trim levels (the mid range ARs), then the supercharged Roush Stage 3 mustang (higher end ARs), then the race only SCCA Spec class, dragsters, and similar race shop mustangs (top end ARs)